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Cleaning up corroded dials

On cross and top slides

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John Coates16/11/2009 22:07:36
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558 forum posts
28 photos
Hi
 
My 1947 lathe has corrosion on the dials on the cross and top slides
 
I have had a little go with some emery cloth but it seems that when I have removed most of the corrosion the dial marks and numbers are very faint
 
Reluctant to proceed any further I wonder if there is a better way to do this or else is there a way of getting the dials remarked with new divisions (presumably these are 5 and 10 thou divisions) and numbers
 
Thanks for any replies
 
John
 
1947 5" x 24" Barker roundbed lathe
Frank Dolman17/11/2009 01:06:28
106 forum posts

    1.  Buy and read Geo Thomas's "The model engineer's workshop manual" and
  "Workshop techniques"   You will then know how to do it and how to make the
   necessary kit.
 
     2.  Resolve to do it when time and money allow.
 
     3.  Degrease the scales very thoroughly and reinforce the existing marks
  using a steady hand and a drawing pen with indian ink.  This will last surprisingly
  well but not so well that you ignore the advice in  (1.) for very long.
russell18/11/2009 02:53:02
142 forum posts
i have a similar problem with my elderly drummond. i've wirebrushed the dial, but need some way to properly clean out and fill the markings (some of which are very shallow).
 
I've tried using a carbide tip scriber to clean the lines, but very little effect as the dial appears quite hard.
 
Frank, i think you are suggesting rescribing the lines using some sort of gadget? Is it possible to get them lined up well enough, or is it just easier to make a new dial?
Is there any benefit to steel over aluminium? What is the best way to make the lines high contrast?
 
so many questions....
 
russell
Frank Dolman18/11/2009 09:21:53
106 forum posts

    My advice to read Geo Thomas is the core of this.  He explains, in good detail,
  how to make all sorts of dials from scratch.  If you decide to go the whole way,
  an awful lot of tooling is required but it is all stuff that a complete machine shop
  should include anyway.  Some weeks back, in a different thread, Meyrick
  recommended a Versatile Dividing Head, a Universal Pillar Tool and a Quorn.
   This represents a dreat deal of time and, by my standards, quite a bit of
  money but just about the best, if well made.
 
    There is one addition to my previous post.  The Bodger, using indian ink,
  will find that it will stick to the steel better if he gives a wipe of Jenolite first.
 
    Read Geo Thomas
Michael Cox 118/11/2009 10:40:18
555 forum posts
27 photos
I dont know whether this would work but you could try etching the cleaned up surface with ferric chloride solution (this is easily obtainable from Maplin as it is used for etching printed circuit boards).
It is likely that the etch would attack areas of stressed metal faster and the most highly stressed areas will be those around where the graduations were scribed when the dial was made.
Mike
John Coates18/11/2009 12:30:23
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558 forum posts
28 photos
Frank
 
Had a look on Amazon for the George Thomas books - nearly £80 the pair! - so can see what you mean when "time and money allow"
 
My first plan of attack will be to restore the existing rather than replace with new
 
Thanks for the help guys
 
John
 
John Stevenson18/11/2009 12:48:06
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5068 forum posts
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I had an old slotter years ago with a dial about 1.5 " in diameter with 200 divisions on it, although clear it was impossible to read.
I made a new dial al lot larger  and then drew 200 division on my CAD program where base line equalled Pi x the diameter of the new dial.
Printed this out and wrapped it round but it was slightly out so rescaled the drawing a couple of times and got one to fir exactly then wrapped some cellotape round it to protect it.
 
Worked remarkably well and I was able to choose clear numbers etc.
 
John S.
Frank Dolman18/11/2009 17:46:27
106 forum posts

     Whoops, £80 for Geo Thomas eh John!  Mine were much cheaper.  Still, you
  must read them.  Find a ME smaller than yourself and "borrow" them!  By the
  way, I am a lot bigger than you.
 
     Ferric chloride will not etch steel, Mike.  I don't think that faster action on stressed
  metal will be enough to make a visible difference.  Phosphoric acid ( Jenolite )
  will etch steel, so will sulphuric.  Hydrochloric works but somehow seems to
  leave behind it an increased tendency to rust.  I don't believe unmasked
  etching will be successful.  If you try it and win, I am prepared to look silly!
 
     Frank
Michael Cox 118/11/2009 18:58:43
555 forum posts
27 photos
Ferric chloride will etch steel, Frank. It is a standard etch used in the metallographic examination of steels. On badly polished samples it will reveal the lines caused by the initial grinding the steel on wet/dry paper even though the polished surface is quite plane. It was this latter observation that prompted my original comment.
Mike
chris stephens18/11/2009 19:25:24
1049 forum posts
1 photos
Hi Guys,
 I thought Amazon were meant to be cheap, the publishers price is £50.90 +P&P for both! someone somewhere is ripping the public off big time!
On the graduating theme, I did the same as JohnS for the dials for my Quorn, I used an ink jetable shiny "silver" film and when I made a new dial for the Barometer I was restoring, I used Laser printable water slide material.
When I made more permanent dials for the Quorn I used a 10 thou thick slitting saw in the mill to cut the lines, as some of you may have seen at a show or two. I have been asked to put it on the SMEE stand at Sandown, so if anyone is interested they can see it there, only static display though I am afraid. It does work in steel, by the way, getting back to the original post.
chriStephens
John Coates18/11/2009 20:52:32
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558 forum posts
28 photos
Thanks Chris
 
Those prices are a lot more within my family's budget for Xmas presents so I'll point them towards the Tee Publishing website   
 
In the meantime it's back to painting the garage where the lathe is going to go
 
John
 
Frank Dolman18/11/2009 21:37:52
106 forum posts

 
      Your information is so impressive Mike that I shall consult Mother Nature
  the ultimate authority, and report further.
chris stephens18/11/2009 22:43:35
1049 forum posts
1 photos
Hi John,
If money is tight, when isn't it, I would pick the "The Model Engineers Workshop Manual".
"The Workshop Techniques" is mainly concerned with making making the UPT and the VDH.
chriStephens
michael bird19/11/2009 08:10:46
22 forum posts
9 photos

Frank Dolman mentions Jenolite in his reply, can I ask him is this still available, and where I can purchase it from online.  I have read many mentions of Jenolite in car restorations books, but having searched extensively cannot find a supplier.
 
Michael Bird.
John Stevenson19/11/2009 08:26:50
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5068 forum posts
3 photos
Well I have been doing engineering professionally for umpteen years now and have never read Thomas.
 
Am I missing out here? 
 
No one told me it was compulsory reading before switching a lathe on.
 
John S.
Frank Dolman19/11/2009 10:11:01
106 forum posts

     My Jenolite came from a motor factor a couple of years ago.  £7 for half
  a litre.  This was the watery variety, not the jelly.  If this is another good thing
  that has vanished, I shall mourn it. Shell Care International Ltd 0161 935 7490.
   Usual Disclaimer.
chris stephens19/11/2009 12:17:22
1049 forum posts
1 photos
Hi John,
One will have one's little joke. You know perfectly well that most of what is in GHT's books you could have written yourself, but he got there before you. 
One trouble with not being a trained machinist is that you have to swot up a bit sharpish, his writings help those who worked in other fields to learn a few things that might have taken years to learn by themselves.
If you need more lining for your downstairs reading room you could give him a try. There will be things you agree with, but then again, you will find things that you could do better. Ask any dozen engineers a question and you will get a dozen or more replies, but with GHT you get workable answers that (fairly) newbies will comprehend. Hopefully!
The other John Stephens'son

Geoff Sheppard19/11/2009 15:14:31
80 forum posts
1 photos
The 'Gospels according to St. George' are a valuable asset to any newcomer to the hobby. His methods are sometimes a bit over-complicated and long-winded for those who know what they are doing, but following his instructions always seems to come up with the right result. Most of the content of his books was originally published in Model Engineer and there are thousands of back numbers available at next to nothing if you go looking. Our club hut is stuffed full of them, all looking for a good home. Going on to Colin Usher's index will soon tell you the ones you are looking for. The only draw backs are (1) that you have to have somewhere to store them and (2) that you will soon get side-tracked by lots of interesting articles and potential new projects so that you will forget what you were looking for in the first place!
 
Jenolite gel is still available. A colleague has just sourced some off the internet from one of the car restoration suppliers. More readily available now seems to be a gel from Hammerite which I have just obtained but not yet tried. 
 
Geoff
Frank Dolman19/11/2009 23:59:04
106 forum posts

     Mother Nature says Mike Cox is right and that my brain hs gone like a tin
  of RTD.  I'm not going to tell you what my punishment is, I'll just say it is
  condign.  Ferric chloride will etch steel.
pcb196220/11/2009 10:36:48
65 forum posts
George Thomas's books are available from Tee Publishing (google it) at 23.95 and 26.95
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