Tony Martyr | 06/08/2023 09:23:54 |
![]() 226 forum posts 45 photos | The winning entry at our town Show in the category of 'Metal or Wooden' objects was a metal plasma cut Dragon that is commercially available on line. It beat some well crafted Black-smithy entries and a remarkable wire sculpture but, since there was no wording in the entry form to disqualify such entries there was no legal grounds for its exclusion. Most of the general public would not have known of its origin. I am proposing to send the following message to the organisers - if any reader has dealt with tis problem I would welcome suggestions of better wording. Tony M |
JasonB | 06/08/2023 10:03:08 |
![]() 25215 forum posts 3105 photos 1 articles | Might also be worth asking for a new class to be added for CAD/CAM, 3D, CNC Etc items which would help keep the entries and interest up as more and more people make use of these technologies I assume it was a CNC plasma cutter and not one used free hand, if it was used free hand then where do you draw the line as it would just be another powertool or should they be excluded too? Edited By JasonB on 06/08/2023 10:10:17 |
Mike Hurley | 06/08/2023 10:16:34 |
530 forum posts 89 photos | Fully agree Tony - . whilst not against the rules as such, but sounds very much like being against the spirit of hand-made crafts.A simple change to those rules as suggested would remove any future confusion. regards |
Ramon Wilson | 06/08/2023 10:36:17 |
![]() 1655 forum posts 617 photos | Fully agree too Tony - doesn't matter whether it was done by normal means or CNC because if, as you state, it was 'commercially available on line' then it is not a 'handicraft' - anyone can have one if they are prepared to part with the cash. I well remember a conversation with an entrant at an Old Warden Scale day who had flown this beautifully built twin engined Bristol Beaufighter R/C model which subsequently had won the best model award. I asked him how long he had taken to build it - Oh I didn't build it, he said, I bought it from the person who did. Hollow victory in my book so do send your letter but check the spelling of techneques (sic)
Best - Tug |
Howard Lewis | 06/08/2023 10:41:00 |
7227 forum posts 21 photos | Seems unfair for items actually hand made by carpentry, turning, milling etc to be ouclessed by a lasaer cut kit that can be bought. Less Handicraft, more assembly! It should be a condition of the entry being accepted into the compettition that the majority of the work should be carried out by the entrant. (It should not be possible to win "Best Model Locomotive" with a Hornby or Bachmann model, good as they are ) Howard |
Speedy Builder5 | 06/08/2023 10:57:56 |
2878 forum posts 248 photos | Perhaps entrants should have some form of recognition for the number of hours the entry took to complete. |
bernard towers | 06/08/2023 11:03:54 |
1221 forum posts 161 photos | Fully agree with Tony, Had the same scenario when I used to organise classic bike part of a local show and only entries that were ridden in were judged. After a couple of years the trailered bikes with no internals didn't bother coming. |
Ady1 | 06/08/2023 11:04:26 |
![]() 6137 forum posts 893 photos | They need to change the classes to Hand built and CAD/CAM/Digital entries You don't even need to be in the same room when these items are being made, the only hand built bit is the cleaning and tarting it up bit |
Andrew Johnston | 06/08/2023 11:14:31 |
![]() 7061 forum posts 719 photos | Posted by Speedy Builder5 on 06/08/2023 10:57:56:
...recognition for the number of hours the entry took to complete. Would that include the hours spent creating CAD drawings, generating G-code and designing and making fixtures? Andrew |
Ady1 | 06/08/2023 11:28:40 |
![]() 6137 forum posts 893 photos | The big difference with cad/CAM is once you've done the bespoke bit you can run a million of them off with machines going 24/7 |
peak4 | 06/08/2023 11:33:15 |
![]() 2207 forum posts 210 photos | I can understand the issues surrounding the CAM aspect of it regarding a craft competition, but less so the CAD. e.g. I suspect you could download a design for a wooden clock, but make it purely by hand with a fretsaw and chisels etc, in the same way that one time it would have come from a "craft workers" paper book of published clock designs. |
Cabinet Enforcer | 06/08/2023 11:34:37 |
121 forum posts 4 photos | People entering stuff they didn't make has always been an issue in this sort of event, a good judge would have picked up on it, there is no need to "ban" such entries. Edited By Cabinet Enforcer on 06/08/2023 11:35:41 |
Ady1 | 06/08/2023 11:43:50 |
![]() 6137 forum posts 893 photos | Anything made on CAD/CAM is commercial because of its portability It's a completely different skill set compared to hand built |
Clive Foster | 06/08/2023 11:49:47 |
3630 forum posts 128 photos | I think Andrew got a new spoon for his birthday! Seriously it's pretty much an impossible distinction. Especially in the context of a small local display with limited number of entries. Where do you draw the lines between made with hand tools, made with machine tools made with CNC et al. Ultimately its going to be down to quality of finish and "wow I like that" factor. Even in the Model Engineering world where there is some appreciation for techniques and how difficult something is to do judgement is ultimately on finite and finish. Complexity and difficulty get extra points once the looks really good hurdle is crossed but it has to look good first. When you put something in a display competition it's a "this is what I made at home" beauty contest. When it comes things like vehicle restoration it is tacitly accepted that the professionals did most, or even all of the work. No fundamental difference there to the racehorse owner getting the trophy for winning the race! Rather than go overboard on distinctions better to have a text panel briefly saying what the entrant had to do, what tools were needed and how long it took. The just lookers will ignore it, the folk who are interested will read it and the person thinking "I might like to do that" will find it useful. Clive |
Martin Johnson 1 | 06/08/2023 12:44:14 |
320 forum posts 1 photos | Seems to me the OP is barking up the wrong tree. Surely the qualifying point is that it must be "of your own manufacture". Jason B among others on here does great things with CAD, CNC etc. That is a world away from buying it on the internet and claiming credit. Martin |
JasonB | 06/08/2023 13:16:24 |
![]() 25215 forum posts 3105 photos 1 articles | Tony, when you say commercially available is that the actual Dragon being entered or just the CAD files which I see there are several to choose from in which case it begs the question what is the difference between buying a set of printed plans and buying a digital file? In both cases someone else has done the design work and the entrant just used their tools to make the part. Even with CNC there are some that I know who have done away with their manual machines and use the CNC for everything be that just drilling a hole where the CNC is no more than a combined DRO and power feed. Others who don't have the latest CAM will spend many hours writing out G-code from their 2D drawings to those that use the full 3D capabilities designing teh part themselves and using the CAM to generate G-code. As for CAD I would rate a model designed from scratch in CAD and built with traditional mill and lathe far higher than someone who went and bought say an old set LBSC or Evens drawings and used similar tools to make it so don't see why the CAD user should be looked down upon Edited By JasonB on 06/08/2023 13:25:23 |
DC31k | 06/08/2023 13:48:23 |
1186 forum posts 11 photos | I think you also need to re-assess (in the sense of narrowing the scope of) the 3D printing part of your exclusion clause. Entering a 3D printed item is probably not within the spirit of the competition, but using a 3D printed something to assist in the item's creation is no different to drawing it in CAD. In a model engineering context, would you disallow a 3D printed pattern used for a casting because you want the person to whittle it out of a dead tree? In a woodworking context, there are numerous 3DP add-ons and gadgets that extend and enhance the capabilities of a 1/4" trim router. For a sculptural item, there might be good reasons to 3DP some level of prototype, gauge proportions and modify as necessary before proceeding to make the real thing in an expensive material. |
Ady1 | 06/08/2023 14:00:29 |
![]() 6137 forum posts 893 photos | CAD/CAM isn't unskilled insofar that it lets you go from a new idea to manufacture within 24 hours It unleashes your creativity by making a complex process very efficient and relatively simple "Manufactured by hand" may be the description, but the lines are blurry Edited By Ady1 on 06/08/2023 14:03:31 |
Nigel Bennett | 06/08/2023 14:16:16 |
![]() 500 forum posts 31 photos | Posted by JasonB on 06/08/2023 13:16:24:
As for CAD I would rate a model designed from scratch in CAD and built with traditional mill and lathe far higher than someone who went and bought say an old set LBSC or Evens drawings and used similar tools to make it so don't see why the CAD user should be looked down upon Edited By JasonB on 06/08/2023 13:25:23 +1 for that, Jason. I have a CAD system, which I use to generate drawings for subsequent manufacture in the workshop which contains no CNC but the odd DRO. I like to check that the work I'm about to do in the shed is going to fit together without having to hack lumps off it or add bits on to make it work. The skills involved in transferring a 3D solid model or 2D DXF into actual hardware is not insignificant. Complex 3D shapes need a lot of careful planning work beforehand to establish the method of manufacture, whether any fixtures are needed and how second- and subsequent operations on the job are going to be carried out. This requires a lot of acquired knowledge. Because something has been manufactured using CAD/CAM, folk seem to think that somebody has simply typed "Widget" into a computer, waited a few moments for the whirring and flashing lights to finish, extracted a memory stick from the computer, opened the workshop door and chucked the memory stick in, slammed the door and waited for a little while before the door opens and the beautifully-finished, accurate-to-a-thou Widget emerges into the daylight... But yes, Tony's original comment that a commercially-available artefact has won a handicraft competition is hardly in the spirit of such contests. |
Ady1 | 06/08/2023 14:37:06 |
![]() 6137 forum posts 893 photos | I've got a wood router which could take a plasma cutter. Fabulous accuracy 0.1mm at super speed. Does perfect curves or whatever you want. But all the operator does is press a button |
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