carbon or HSS

I need to add to my taps and dies. Carbon ones are obviously a lot cheaper, what are the disadvantages. My initial thought is to buy carbon ones from Tracys. But I noticed that the Tap and Die co sell what they call HQS ones. Is this just their name for carbon? Has anyone used both firms, how do they compare.
The intended use is for brass and steel of unknown origin.
Thanks Keith

You may find you get T&D Co ones from Tracy, as I have in the past. M3 one in action on 3mm nominal steel rod. I mostly use Volkel HSS as shown at the start

Edited By JasonB on 11/09/2022 15:34:54

Edited By JasonB on 11/09/2022 15:36:55

My preference is for HSS, even if not used frequently.. I have an ability to break carbon steel!

HQS is T & D version of HSS, NOT carbon, hence the price being higher than carbon steel..

T & D supply industry (As I am sure that Tracy do ) so cannot afford to supply rubbish.

Have had good service from both firms.

Howard

It could be better to get hss ground thread taps, and if possible have the sizes for brass kept separate from the ones used for steel. That would be more expensive, so only buy sizes as they are needed. I can recommend Tracy Tools.

MY experience is most far east manufactured carbon steel taps these days are not of the best quality, but I haven't bought from Tracys.

Tony

Edited By Tony Pratt 1 on 11/09/2022 15:40:38

Carbon Steel taps and dies are more brittle and less tough than HSS. I've seen it claimed that they can be sharper than HSS, and hence better for Brass, but that may not be true.

Treated carefully I find they work well, but they won't put up with abuse or mistakes. In theory HSS will last about 5 times longer than Carbon Steel, but I don't use my taps and dies enough to confirm it.

It's not just the metal that matters: well-sharpened Carbon Steel outperform cheap and nasty HSS! I've done OK with mid-range tools, but beware anything too cheap. The tools I've bought from Tracy have all been fine.

Dave

As for taps the ones I reach for the most are spiral flute, YG-1 for models and ARC for general work, jigs etc You really only need one of these not the usual set of three and they can be turned by hand not just machine.

Edited By JasonB on 11/09/2022 16:12:56

In general I use HSS taps and dies. However some older thread families, ME in particular, are only available in carbon steel. Which is fine as I mostly use them on brass. I think that HQS is simply a form of carbon steel. I use the Tap&Die company for ME threads, usually taps as I screwcut most external ME threads. The owner can be a bit mercurial. I used to buy from Tracy Tools but don't do so any more as I wasn't happy.

Andrew

Thanks for all of the replies. My collection is made up of new ans secondhand (many as new). I don't really use them enough to be a good judge. At my age I am tempted to buy carbon. I have only managed to break one carbon tap. A 12 BA that I was a bit heavy handed with whilst using freehand, If I remember correctly it was a cheap one that I bought from Props at a show. I have also broken brass in a M3 die, trying to cut a brass rod that was greater than 3mm. I put both down to experience.
Not in a rush to make a purchase, so will cogitate a bit more before splashing the cash.
The tap and die site put me off by the way they advertise their discount based on prices "elsewhere". I know it gives a nice looking discount, just seems an odd think to do.
Andrew what did Tracy Tools do to upset you?

So … we have two differing opinions of what HQS might be, and a website which states:

”Our HQS taps dies dienuts considered tougher, better than HSS”

… count me ‘bewildered’

MichaelG.

Often a tap breaks because it is being bent.

There are ways to avoid this.

The hole should be the correct size for the thread being cut. If in doubt, a tiny bit oversize is safer than undersize. Zeus Charts give the correct size drill to use, and the nearest stick size, for this reason.

A very slightly oversize drill will mot decrease the % thread engagement ruinously.

The simple way is to make and use a Tap guide. Just a piece of metal drilled and tapped with the thread to be cut in the work, so that the tap is held square to the surface of the work.

If a hole has to be tapped in an inclined surface, a flat surface (such a spot face ) on which the drill and Tap can be used.

Use a Tapping Fixture (Mine is based on a stand for a pistol drill, but with the tap being held in a small drill chuck, and rotated by a short tommy bar.

In a lathe, Taps and Dies held in holders which slides on an arbor held in the Tailstock. In this way the Tap or Die is on the axis of the lathe, and the newly cut thread is subjected to the mimimum load, rather than trying to drag a Tailstock along the bed.

In a Mill My preference is for a spring loaded holder to guide the outer end of the Tap, whilst it is driven by a suitable sizes tap Wrench.

Suitably lubricated, backed off every half turn, and kept clear of swarf, breakage should be a are occurrence.

Trefolex, Rocol RTD are suitable lubricants for Tapping. Bacon fat will also suffice, if the need arises.

Obviously when using a Die the workpiece should be he correct size for the thread being cut.

HTH

Howard

My most used taps are HSS, metric in my case, but I have carbon steel for some BA that I used on a Stewart steam build. One thing I find is to drill the smaller sizes with a smaller drill size than required then open it up to size, some drills are not accurately ground on the point and tend to cut oversize. Always ensure the tap is inline with the hole, complete the drill and tap process before moving on to the next position.

I believe that HQS is carbon steel and don’t really feel that is does the Tap and Die company a great service to use the mysterious term. However I have found their HQS taps and dies to be made to a high standard and fit for purpose. I feel that carbon steel has acquired a poor reputation as it has been used by the economy end of the market to produce a poor quality tool. HSS is a more expensive material and more difficult to machine. I suspect that HSS is machined by grinding in its hardened condition and so by default is a ground thread rather than a cut as often offered in carbon steel. Reading of peoples problems with threading it would seem that poor quality HSS taps and dies can be found from some sources which together with inexperienced users create real trouble for some. The great attraction of HSS was that it could hold an edge even at red heat whereas carbon steel is very easily destroyed by overheating, overheating is unlikely to be an issue with normal tapping methods but HSS does seem to be more durable and keep an edge longer than carbon steel and is first choice production work or probably more exotic material these days. It probably matters more to buy a decent quality tap rather than what it is made from but as HSS is more difficult to machine and a more expensive material it was once more likely that HSS would be the best option. Buying a brand with a good reputation or from a supplier with a sound reputation should rule out the tool being at fault and take a good look at the technique being used, if it is tried and tested then revisit the tool.

Mike

Edited By Mike Poole on 11/09/2022 20:06:39

I regret the few carbon steel dies of the past and have re purchased hss dies. The carbon steel does struggle when cutting pre hardened materials like piano wire.

.

Thanks for that, Mike

I suppose the root of the problem is that the term ‘carbon steel’ is itself almost meaningless

MichaelG.

.

[quote]

Carbon Steel

Carbon steel is composed of iron and 0.12 - 2.00 percent carbon. The broader definition includes alloy steels, which can also contain up to 10.5 percent alloy content. Even within the confines of under two percentage points of carbon, there is huge variance in physical characteristics—especially hardness.

When people talk about carbon steel, they are usually referring to the high carbon steel used in knives and tools. High carbon steels are very hard, which makes them good at resisting abrasion and retaining shape. They can withstand significant force before deforming. Unfortunately, hard metals are also brittle: when placed under extreme tensile stress, high carbon steels are more likely to crack than bend.

Low carbon steels are more common than high carbon because of (1) lower production costs, (2) greater ductility, and (3) ease of use in manufacturing. Low carbon steels tend to deform under stress instead of breaking, and that ductility makes low carbon steels easy to machine and weld. They are frequently used in automobile body panels, bolts, fixtures, seamless tubes, and steel plate.

[/quote]

.

Ref. __ https://www.reliance-foundry.com/blog/carbon-steel-versus-stainless-steel

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/09/2022 21:16:36

A lot of suppliers used to sell GCQ steel, pretending that this stands for good commercial quality. I reckon it means they have either lost the cert or can't be bothered. In similar vein, does HQS stand for high quality steel, a similarly meaningless term.

I agree Michael, the term carbon steel tells us nothing other than it is steel and not iron. A tap needs to be made from a high carbon steel but again high carbon steel only slightly narrows the range of possible materials, other elements can be added to improve a simple high carbon steel for the making of taps and I am sure that the actual specification was carefully chosen by manufacturers before HSS was widely used. I think carbon steel is a generalisation to identify it is not a HSS, with some of the junk standard items it may be wishful thinking that it is a properly selected and heat treated high carbon steel which over the years has made people wary of non HSS taps and dies. I remember my father telling me that turners on piecework would actually buy their own HSS toolbits as they were supplied with high carbon steel, they covered the cost by being able to use higher speeds and heavier cuts with a reduced resharpening requirement, I suppose the company finally realised they were behind the times and adopted HSS toolbits.

Mike

Good summary, Mike

… it might deserve a place in the ‘Frequently Asked Questions’

MichaelG.

HSS where easily available and affordable.

For 'obsolete' threads like ME and BA I have carbon sets, although i woudl buy HSS if replacing any broken BA taps as they are available.

Also I have carbon taps and die plates for really tiny treads as they are ridiculously cheap and can be treated as disposable, being only used for very rare jobs.

Neil

I'm not sure I can help your bewilderment, but is you go to the FAQ on the Ordering Site, which is different to the Catalogue Site, the text reads thus; (It doesn't help describe the material, as I think BS-949 relates to the tap form, rather than content.)

HQS quality - How does your HQS quality compare to others ?
Answer: Our HQS (= Highest Quality Steel) range are made to BS-949 and are found by customers to be a tougher & better alternative to normal HSS taps & dies sold in the market and are also lower in price and have proven wear resistance and durability since 1978 - They find them excellent in quality and can be used for hand or machine tapping and cuts even into virgin stainless steel. We call this range HQS, as in our opinion, they are possibly the best & highest quality steel taps, dies, dienuts for these prices, which is reflected in their steel composition and hardness - You can read What customers say about Us Our HQS quality = highest quality steel tools, so called by us, ensures guaranteed accuracy for taps, dies + dienuts - All other tools viz : Drills, Reamers, Milling Cutters, Slitting Saws Toolbits are made in HSS or supercobalt

One thing I do note, from a description of two taps
1st quality HQS (Highest Quality Steel, considered a tougher and better alternative to HSS) cuts even into most stainless steel
HSS GT (High Speed Steel Ground Thread) made to precision ISO 529 for machine or hand tapping, cuts stainless steel

The above emphasis is mine

Bill

Edited By peak4 on 12/09/2022 15:04:26