Hi all

Hi all,

This is oddly more difficult than teaching ( current role engineering teacher). I've a 120vm schaublin and a Kerry 14 40 plus a deckel fp1 .

Have been engineering since 1988, but working alongside my father since 1978 ( when I was old enough to jot get hurt) .

Make bows and arrows and repair anything that's broken reall( since it's my trade) so require a fee machine to make components and equipment.

Regards

BT.

Hi Brian welcome to the forum. It sounds like you have a good selection of machinery. Where are you based as it sometimes helps to give local knowledge and supliers.

David

Hi david.

I'm based in newcastle, like I said, have been creating things out of metal for a long time. Started teaching engineering about 15 years ago so it's become more than just something to provide for my family. Engineering is a vocation.

Hi Brian,

Welcome to the forum - yet another useful source of fact and not just opinion.

I note you have ‘fat fingers’ like a lot of us, on occasions (j instead of n - unless ‘jot’ is a word with more than two meanings!).

What is a ‘fee machine’? A technical term, or more fat fingers? ‘Cos I don’t have a clue.

Morning Brian, and welcome!

Don't worry about the dreaded fat-fingers, it's all part of the fun! I read 'fee' as 'few', easily done on a qwerty keyboard!

Many of us end up being asked to repair stuff as soon as neighbours, friends and family find out we have machines. Not entirely welcome in my case - I don't have the discipline or skills. Must be interesting doing it for a living - respect!

Dave

Hi not done it yet. Fee is few with fat fingers and a small keypad on my mobile phone.

My skin is thick and I do enjoy a good bit of workshop banter so crack on end enjoy my fat fingers..

Edited By Brian Todd on 11/10/2019 10:29:41

Welcome to the forum Brian,

Neil

Thanks Neil,

I'm sure I will find some kindred spirits here.

We are a dying breed and we must maintain our secrets here within these pages for the future generation to discover in their own time when needed.

Richard Sennett (2008) writes; When the master dies his secrets die with him!.

Oh here is another quote (I like them as they make you think).

The club footed Hephaestus proud of his work if not himself is the most dignified a person can become.

We  all represent a modern Hephaestus in some way!

Let us maintain the dignity of master craftspeople and preserve craftwork for the betterment of our young. By doing this maybe then they can remove the shackles of narrow thinking and allow them to break free from the indurated habits of standard schooling (in its singular search for schools to be seen as getting young people through exams) . Only then will they begin to recognize that the older generation have a lifetime of tricks and techniques that can make things a trifle easier, after all everyone has a vocation in life. There is nothing more tragic than  being forced by circumstance into a most uncongenial calling and by not finding it, having a life but not living.

I enjoy writing and if you fancy reading something I penned when the beast from the east was battering the country I will gladly upload a story of my own craft development at the hands of a true master.

Admin if you would like please ask.

Brian

Edited By Brian Todd on 11/10/2019 20:16:31

You may have read it as ‘few machines’, as I might have done had ‘machine’ been in the plural. That is what threw me.

Hi Brian

welcome to the forum - I am a relatively new member myself.

Your intro is very philosophical! but I think I understand what you are saying regarding our younger generation. At the last employment I had, I looked after an engineering apprentice in our small development workshop. Solving problems was a daily challenge. I tried to get our apprentice to think for herself rather than being told what to do. One day there was a problem with the CNC mill, so I said "right Amber, what do you think is going wrong here?" She replied "I don't know, I haven't been taught that yet!" This seemed to sum up the problem with modern education right there in that statement - to me any way. I replied "I haven't been taught that yet either! Your education has given you a foundation but you have to learn to THINK and use logic and deduction to solve problems yourself, otherwise you will always limit yourself to what you have been taught".

I also had a young graduate engineer with a degree in aeronautical engineering....he was employed alongside me as a Design Engineer. One day we had a need to go into the workshop to quickly knock up a prototype. I gave him a handsaw and asked him to cut some lengths of wood. He got hold of the saw awkwardly and asked "how do you use this?" To all those of you who think I am joking, please believe me when I say, I wish I was!!

I for one would like to hear about your craft development at the hands of a true master....its funny because I don't remember your name and I normally remember the names of those who studied under me.....only kidding :-0, tell us your story please...

Graham

Edited By Graham Williams 12 on 12/10/2019 23:17:10

Hi graham,

It would be nice for somone to read a story, it would be my privilege for you to spend even 10 minutes of your time to read it. I will post in here later this evening.

Philosophy, I'm completing my phd next month in education so spot on. Creating conditions for the cultervstion of our young is paramount if we wish our country to survive. We, are the vessels through which the honour dignity and respect are channelled.what it means to practice a craft well and receive the intrinsic rewards from doing so have been the hallmarks of those who practice crafts for centuties.

Your stories are rich and demonstrate the vocational and academic devide precisely. Vocational studies are far more rich than academic studies, we all have a calling to do something in the world, the trick is finding it.

Thank you for agreeing to read the upturned bucket( that's the name of the story) , will post soon. As always bt.

But beware: elderly gentlemen have moaned about the hopeless young being since before the dawn of time. I submit the old chaps have always been wrong. Mature men forget that practical skills have to be developed through experience.

In defence of newbies, although sawing is fairly obvious, doing it properly ain't so easy. It requires 'muscle memory', which only comes with practice. Most workshop skills are easy when you know how and have a repertoire of practised techniques. If you press the average craftsman to explain how he would make a saw from first principles, it likely becomes apparent he's a user rather than an engineer. Being able to use a saw is a different skill to knowing how to make one and it's not necessary to do both. The awful truth about the modern world is no-one understands everything: we all depend utterly on the expertise of others.

Let me suggest a slightly different version of the saw story. Imagine I'm a Concert Pianist meeting a youngster trained in Classical Guitar for the first time. Perhaps the boy is a Gold Medallist. Wouldn't it be a mistake for me to expect him do a good job on Liszt’s “La Campanella”? After all it's obvious how a piano is played - you just have to bang the keys in the right order and at the right time.

Another mistake is believing craft skills are somehow more valuable than academic learning based on science. Rather the opposite: one of the goals of manufacturing is to eliminate craft skills. It's not because craft skills aren't respected, or are redundant, it's because craft methods are gob-smackingly expensive. Cheaper to replace skilled men with machines, ideally fully automatic, or drivable after a short training session. In this environment the youngster is more likely to make his living by understanding CAD/CAM instead of tape-measures and screwdrivers. The advantage is you and I can enjoy life's comforts without having to pay for high priced craft-work. The disadvantage is it assumes humanities end-goal is wealth and comfort rather than a sustainable future and enjoyable jobs.

As I've aged I've mostly forgotten my youthful struggle to understand the world and how it worked. Thinking youngsters are idiots is my mistake, not theirs.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 13/10/2019 12:29:32

Hi Dave,

I agree with most of your post, but you are missing the point I was trying to make.

I am in no way saying youngsters are idiots. The female apprentice was academically very bright and was very upset when she didn't get a highly commended in one of her subjects at college. Same with the young graduate.

I bet most people on this forum grew up as I did with tools in their hands. Most of my early Christmas presents as a kid were having a workshop in the garden and tools. We all made things we wanted and pulled things apart to see how they worked etc.

All my six grandchildren spend most of their time in virtual worlds on play stations. They all attend school. When I help them with homework they are always trying to remember the answer to a problem rather than being able to visualise that problem and work it out. Do you see what I mean?

Back in my day we did ONC's and HND's etc and you got a practical grounding as well as theoretical. Thats my point. You had an appreciation of both disciplines - you had some balance. I have come to the conclusion - rightly or wrongly and Im happy to be corrected - that children are taught 'parrot fashion' with the sole objective of passing exams. There is not so much emphasis on being encouraged to think... I believe this is what the OP - who is a teacher - is referring to.

I,m not laughing at the guy who can't saw, I'm lamenting the fact he never had the opportunity.

I'm not laughing at my apprentice, who couldn't solve a problem because she hadn't been taught it! I'm lamenting the attitude she left school with.

Practical skills will be lost if we are not careful.

From an early age I made Radio controlled aircraft. There was just as much satisfaction in the building as the flying.

Now almost everyone who comes into the hobby buys ARTF (Almost ready to fly - it's all built for you in the Far East.)

Instant Gratification!

How many young engineers are there on this forum?

As far as myself valuing craft skills over academic (or vice versa), I have been lucky enough to have a foot in both camps over my career. But I don't even want to get into a discussion of 'blue collar versus white collar' work, and the way those two groups are treated differently, even now, in this country! All skills are equally important too any company - a fact too often overlooked and stems from attitudes developed a long time ago.

Dave, I hope I have clarified my post and apologies to Brian for jumping on his introduction.

Edited By Graham Williams 12 on 13/10/2019 13:44:44

So far we are in agreement. Skills ( based upon craft and its development) are worthy of attempts to preserve them. The young( even older people learning present themselves as children when they dont know) need help support and guidance . They also need nurturing so they can grow into being ( whatever it is) and not simply telling do this or do that. That is the difference between teaching and instruction. Teaching is hard, I always ask why was your favorite teacher your favorite? My favorite slimy acknowledged me as a human being and embraced my differences, he also demonstrated mutual respect, created environments that let me find things out( that he intended) for myself and then questioned me upon the discovery, this made me speak about something that was always a new discovery.

This gentlemen Is a very good debate , and no worries about jumping onto threads ( see engineering term there) the conversation is far too important to miss. Bt

Brian, out of interest what bows do you make? I have an interest as I used to shoot compound bow competitively

Graham

Hi graham, I shoot receive, crossbow and foot bow.

I make limbs, risers and arrows for flight archery. Just defended my national titles for the seventh year running and broke the British records again. Have some that every year since 2012. I love the engineering involved in making efficient equipment shot grat distances. Currently my greatest is 856 yards the cross bow record now stands at 756 yards. Its archery meets engineering so it's two of my favourites combined.

What and where did you shoot compound graham?

Hi Brian,

yes, I can see the attraction in that... and 856 yards is a loooong way. Certainly get plenty of exercise doing that as well! Interesting that the crossbow distance is less! Congratulations on your titles.

i shot compound in the Oxfordshire team and for two local clubs. In a lot of the competitions I entered at that time (it’s going back a few years now) I came second most of the time, as I shot in the same club as the British compound champion at that time!

Any projects in the pipeline apart from the archery?

Graham

Hi graham. My time is taken up at the moment with writing a thesis. I'm 75000 words into a 90000 word piece and only 4 weeks to complete so full steam ahead on that front. In the pipeline. I wish to buy a 102 vm and then strip my fp1 and overhaul it plus paint it as it's a bit ropey at the moment.

Just need to get the thesis finished and that will free up some time.

How about you? What are your current projects? Bt

Hi Brian

pm sent

Graham