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blowlamp18/03/2019 21:06:09
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Posted by Ian Hewson on 18/03/2019 20:23:27:

More cnc wouldn’t tempt me back to MEW, that was one of the reasons I cancelled my subscription in the first place. Long lines of g code as Blowlamps above leave me cold.

Each to there own though.

Me too, that's why it would be nice to have the gcode uploaded here to accompany the magazine article.

It would help those with CNC equipment, but maybe not the CAD/CAM, or let's say, adequate CAD/CAM or skills, for a particular machining job.

Martin.

Andrew Johnston19/03/2019 11:12:56
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Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/03/2019 20:09:03:

Seriously, CNC articles don't need to be a series - Joe Noci's shaper was a good example, although I did want it to have another page or two, so we gave it the cover instead. There have been others, but not as many as I would have expected.

Never considered a series, just one off articles. A CNC article may be longer because it might be discussing a complex part that cannot be made with standard manual machines. So as background there may be some design theory, 3D CAD and CAM.

Reading the forum it is clear there is a definite anti-CNC undertone. So I expected the magazines to minimise CNC exposure. It is interesting to contrast with some US based forums where everybody is pretty positive about CNC, whether they use it or not.

Andrew (Pot stirrer extraordinaire)

SillyOldDuffer19/03/2019 11:54:42
10668 forum posts
2415 photos
Posted by Andrew Johnston on 19/03/2019 11:12:56:
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 18/03/2019 20:09:03:

Seriously, CNC articles don't need to be a series - Joe Noci's shaper was a good example, although I did want it to have another page or two, so we gave it the cover instead. There have been others, but not as many as I would have expected.

Never considered a series, just one off articles...

I can see why CNC might not be welcome in Model Engineer, but surely it has a place in Model Engineering Workshop? As the latter focuses on tools and techniques it should be covering modern as well as established techniques.

Carbide inserts, 3D-printing, CNC, CAD, SVG, microcontrollers, DRO, VFD, Superglue, Stepper Motors, Metric, PPE, Brushless, Diamonds, bring it on!

Dave (Apprentice Pot Stirrer Extraordinaire)

John Haine19/03/2019 12:02:13
5563 forum posts
322 photos

With all the concern about the small number of young people going into engineering, getting interested in "making", to create a future for our hobby, it is crazy to bias either the website or the magazines against CNC because some traditionalists don't like it. CNC is hardly "new" any more - once you get to the stage where people are buying and renovating CNC machines it can't be! Increasingly people will turn away from this website if it doesn't cater for their interests.

This is the only forum I belong to that only allows the upload of jpg files - this is just stupid. There should be a "files" section that allows any file format, which would be a place to put g-code text files so people don't have to paste the code in a message.

JasonB19/03/2019 12:10:49
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25215 forum posts
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I'm sure there are some subjects that could be covered that would not need to even include G-code.

I have a thread on another forum about my KX3 and some of the posts there have been very interesting and it would be good to see articles on some of the newer methods and toolpaths that CAM can generate. For example one person who does very good work with his CNC machines poo pooed the time I said my CAM had suggested to machine a part which it did with no trouble. One of the other members posted a file with an adaptive tool path that gave high metal removal rates for him to try and he said he had never seen metal removed so fast. So always things to learn

Ian Johnson 119/03/2019 13:57:33
381 forum posts
102 photos

So! this KX1 / KX3 clearance offer. Has anyone bought one yet?

I would love to buy another KX1 but haven't got the space!

As for CNC versus manual, I enjoy doing both in my little workshop. Maybe it's because I was machining in industry when the first wave of proper CNC machines appeared in the early eighties in our workshop. TI Matrix CNC lathes and a huge Kearns Richards CNC HBM. All mixed in with NC and manual machines.

The next wave of model engineers will be using additive manufacturing techniques, laser cutting, CNC with multiple axis, sliding heads, robots and more! Our hobby is rapidly evolving, and I think it's got a bright future.

Ian

Andrew Johnston19/03/2019 14:01:39
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7061 forum posts
719 photos
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 19/03/2019 11:54:42:

I can see why CNC might not be welcome in Model Engineer, but surely it has a place in Model Engineering Workshop? As the latter focuses on tools and techniques it should be covering modern as well as established techniques.

Carbide inserts, 3D-printing, CNC, CAD, SVG, microcontrollers, DRO, VFD, Superglue, Stepper Motors, Metric, PPE, Brushless, Diamonds, bring it on!

Agreed, although personally I'd leave politics out of it.

Andrew

PPE = Philosophy, Politics & Economics - an almost obligatory Oxford degree for wannabe prime ministers.

martin perman19/03/2019 17:35:49
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2095 forum posts
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Posted by Andrew Johnston on 19/03/2019 14:01:39:
Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 19/03/2019 11:54:42:

I can see why CNC might not be welcome in Model Engineer, but surely it has a place in Model Engineering Workshop? As the latter focuses on tools and techniques it should be covering modern as well as established techniques.

Carbide inserts, 3D-printing, CNC, CAD, SVG, microcontrollers, DRO, VFD, Superglue, Stepper Motors, Metric, PPE, Brushless, Diamonds, bring it on!

Agreed, although personally I'd leave politics out of it.

Andrew

PPE = Philosophy, Politics & Economics - an almost obligatory Oxford degree for wannabe prime ministers.

Gentlemen,

I'm not poo pooing any of the above, I've just spent the last 40 years of my working life installing, commissioning, training and servicing machining centres, Robots, Automation, Injection moulding machines and machine tools all using PLC's, CNC etc they are all fantastic machines and can spit out repetative pieces by the thousand day in and day out but nobody is ever going to get me to understand why a home model engineer would ever want one to make one item, they were designed to make repetive items quicker and easier than several toolmakers could with lathes, mills, grinders and foundry's etc.

The enjoyment I get is to make something from nothing with the basics, you go into a jobbing shop today with CNC mills and lathes and you will find a couple of guys in front of computers writing out the programmes and dry running them and then they give the disc to the operator who loads the programme and presses the green button and minds the machine doesnt run out of material, wheres the fun in that.

Martin P

Another JohnS19/03/2019 18:08:29
842 forum posts
56 photos

Martin;

"you go into a jobbing shop today"

Most certainly, any jobbing shop is repetitive slogging. (at least from what I've come to understand)

Where I worked (NOT as a machinist; but the machinists did stuff for MY work) the guys there made one-offs on CNC mills. No manual mills. They were artisans in what they did. It was called the "model shop".

They used CNC as a tool to enable better precision and less scrapping of complex parts, and allowing redesign without issue. They were making scientific and military prototypes, so nothing (especially from us!) was cast in stone. Some of the Virtual Reality stuff I did (now in our Canadian Science and Tech museum) was CNC'd to make it look less "agricultural". In this case, they made duplicates, as one set was for a traveling road show (Europe, half way across the pacific, etc).

They could not believe that I did not have CNC at home in my shop; I, too, originally thought CNC was for blasting through material making thousands of parts, until these guys educated me.

So, I use CNC now, and I'm not going back!

Neil Wyatt19/03/2019 18:33:28
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19226 forum posts
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86 articles
Posted by martin perman on 19/03/2019 17:35:49:

I'm not poo pooing any of the above, I've just spent the last 40 years of my working life installing, commissioning, training and servicing machining centres, Robots, Automation, Injection moulding machines and machine tools all using PLC's, CNC etc they are all fantastic machines and can spit out repetative pieces by the thousand day in and day out but nobody is ever going to get me to understand why a home model engineer would ever want one to make one item, they were designed to make repetive items quicker and easier than several toolmakers could with lathes, mills, grinders and foundry's etc.

The KX1 came with a demonstration piece, possibly meant to be the front cover of a turbine or aero engine? Something I could never produce manually.

When I get the machine running its job will be making complex shapes that I can't do easily or at all by hand.

Neil

JasonB19/03/2019 18:56:43
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25215 forum posts
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Much the same here, I won't be giving up my manual machines but hope to use the KX3 to do things that I otherwise can't or that would be extreamly difficult and/or time consuming such as..

Flywheels with curly, tapered and oval section spokes

Parts that would need many setups on a rotary table, I have shown earlier a part that can now be made in 10mins that took me a weekend to do manually

Shaped mouldings around things like engine base plates, a lot of work to build up the profiles that would originally have been cast.

Making parts in materials that I can't easily join together such as aluminium and cast iron, this will allow the correct finish on bare parts that would have looked wrong if I fabricated from steel or brass which are easily soldered also no solder lines on soldered parts

Lettering on parts that would have originally have been cast. Wouldn't it be nice to replicate that broken or missing casting from one of your stationary engines?

Plenty more possibilities that this has opened up for me, maybe as I'm not in the engineering trade I don't have anything to get away from.

Andrew Johnston19/03/2019 20:40:39
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7061 forum posts
719 photos

So far I've used all three milling machines (two manual and one CNC) to make my press tooling for forming my traction engine rear wheel strakes. Oh, and the manual lathe as well.

I use CNC for a variety of reasons:

Parts I design myself where time is money and if I can use CNC to profile or pocket strange shapes i don't need to make multiple parts and then fabricate

Multiple parts where I'm too idle to use the manual mill - like the spokes for my traction engine wheels - and not just the outline but a zig-zag hole pattern for the rivets as per full size, which would be a real pain to do manually, even with a DRO

Onesies and twosies like the wing valves for my traction engine water pump or the internal spokes on my hollow pistons that would be very time consuming to do manually

Parts that are impossible to make on manual machines - like proper bevel gears

For me the parts are the important thing, not the machining. So I'll use whatever mix of machines gets me the part quickest, and that includes CNC milling.

Andrew

SillyOldDuffer19/03/2019 21:17:57
10668 forum posts
2415 photos

Posted by martin perman on 19/03/2019 17:35:49:

...

The enjoyment I get is to make something from nothing with the basics, you go into a jobbing shop today with CNC mills and lathes and you will find a couple of guys in front of computers writing out the programmes and dry running them and then they give the disc to the operator who loads the programme and presses the green button and minds the machine doesnt run out of material, wheres the fun in that.

Martin P

I enjoy basics too, but be careful what you wish for. The tools we use are all historically recent arrivals, considered dangerous innovations in their day and a threat to the livelihoods of time-served craftsmen.

Maudsley's lathe with lead-screws and precision held cutting tools isn't that ancient - about 1800. Twist drills 1861. Electric motors on lathes appeared in the 1930s and weren't common in home workshops before 1950. Previously big lathes were line driven by belts powered by a steam engine, or a water wheel, and small ones by a treadle or treadmill. Electric light in workshops after 1880, with fluorescent lamps appearing in 1930. NC appeared in the 1940s, CNC about 1960.

Really going back to basics would mean making your own iron and hand chiselling it. Wonderful to watch old techniques in a museum, but I'm reluctant to ignore any tool or technique that saves bother especially if it's interesting. It's not as if reading MEW commits us to taking an exam, phew!

Dave

John Haine19/03/2019 22:44:08
5563 forum posts
322 photos

Just to add to the list of things CNC can do that are impossible by hand....

  • Making a modified Synchronome clock pallet that faithfully follows the profile that Frank Hope-Jones describes mathematically in his classic book Electrical Timekeeping but is next to impossible to make by hand.
  • Making an equi-angular spiral cam to allow a stepper motor to generate linear motion depending on the number of steps.
  • The Gearotic software to generate true involute gears.
  • Making gear cutters of any module and number of teeth and true involute on a CNC lathe.
  • Making true cycloidal cheeks for a pendulum suspension (if you really wanted to).
  • ......

Apart from enabling one to make shapes impossible by traditional methods it's also an interesting process in its own right - not to say exciting as the rotating cutter heads for your pristine machine table!

Andrew Evans20/03/2019 08:23:58
366 forum posts
8 photos

Andrew - your PPE / politics gag seems to have escaped without comment. Probably just as well. smiley Andy

Andrew Evans20/03/2019 08:26:49
366 forum posts
8 photos

Jason, Neil - how are you finding your new machines for accuracy? Have you had to do much in the way of adjustments? Andy

JasonB20/03/2019 09:09:45
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25215 forum posts
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I have not had much chance to play with mine and I think Neil has done even less.

I did do a 20mm x 20mm square hole and that measured 19.99 x 19.98, that is with it still stood on the pallet with no adjustments to gibs, leveling or tram and no backlash compensation in Mach3. Cutter could also be cutting slightly under.

Former Member20/03/2019 09:43:17

[This posting has been removed]

JasonB20/03/2019 09:55:02
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25215 forum posts
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No finish cut, more details of cut at the top of this page, Andrew saw the part at the weekend and said the finish was good so it can't be half bad.

Former Member20/03/2019 10:38:40

[This posting has been removed]

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