Have You considered getting a 3D printer

Just been looking at the Prusa Research site and there is a notice at head of page saying "Currently we are not accepting UK orders due to Brexit issues".

Amazon are saying they are not currently available.

Hope it all gets sorted. soon.

Martyn

I got the same one a few weeks ago. The first things I made with it were a bearing holder for the top end of the Z ball screw, and an extension bracket to mount the filament lower down - both downloaded from thingiverse. I’ve also done a couple of things in Fusion360, exporting them as stl files and using Creality Slicer to convert them to g-code. All very easy, more so than I expected.

Edited By Steve Pavey on 28/01/2021 20:04:55

3D printing things for the 3D printer! Haha

Mine is alive and moving now, not made anything yet, but I had a look at thingiverse and my oh my what a mind boggling selection of stuff!

I am impressed with the build quality of the ender 3, although one of the base rails has a slight bow where the Zaxis profiles sits, I left it alone and it seems okay for now. But I knew nothing about 3D printers until now, let's see how it goes!

IanJ

“No skill and what have you achieved ?”

Not “no skill”. Just different skills.

You'll have the part you wanted. Made by an efficient process, freeing up time to use doing something that can't be done like that. Just like bandsawing your blanks compared to cutting them with a hacksaw.

Making things is a means to an end. If I just wanted to make things with my hands, I'd take up whittling scrap wood with the pocket knife I've owned for years

Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but for those who already have small CNC routers, there is an add-on or pluggin for Mach3 to do 3D printing on said machine. So if you use Mach3 on your router already, you need to add an extruder/hotend and of you wish a heated bed - should work OK - most likely the mechanics are more rigid, sturdy, etc as compared to some systems reportedly needing fair tweeking? There appears even to be a CURA config file for Mach3.

Tony, re just pushing a button and no skills achieved - You have learnt a new skill for sure, and the resulting increase in capability spurns greater ventures on projects you might never have tackled.

After all, if you believed your argument, the even the lowly CNC mill should be banned!

I think this sort of tech just enables us to to more complex, interesting and challenging projects that we would never have considered 4 or 5 years ago even..

Joe

If you saw the things people are designing and making with 3D printing I think you would retract that immediately - unless you make your own ball races, castings and fixings.

3D printing opens the door to a whole new set of possibilities. For example, I know a retired computer programmer who is 3D printing a long case clock, her second 3D printed clock. A conventional build means choose a design and stick to it. She's been able to experiment continuously towards the final design. Incidentally, she has built a number of 'oversize' 3D printers from scratch. Someone else is printing a tracking telescope mount and I know someone else who has been producing museum models of spacecraft, including a Hubble Telescope at 1:12 scale.

One thing that 3D printing allows is rapidly and economically making objects and mechanisms that wouldn't be worth the effort to machine. I spent months on a telescope built around a premium lens by traditional metalworking, that probably cost as much as buying a complete scope by the end of it. I made another telescope around a cheap lens almost entirely by 3d printing just for the fun of it in a couple of weeks that probably cost leas than £25.

Also, if you make things by 3D printing you develop a deep understanding of the design and production processes and the material properties.

It's just different skills

Neil

Yes a 3d printer is a means to an end, I'm treating mine like a toy at the moment, to while away some covid lockdown hours! but I'm sure there will be a useful project or two made on it eventually.

I operated the first modern CNC lathes in the early 80's and there was a lot of opposition to them at the time, because we were all manual machinists, but over a short time we embraced the technology and introduced more machines to increase production. Different skills were adopted for the better I think.

IanJ

Well there is the skill in designing it in the first place. 3D Printing (and CNC as you mention it) opens up the doors to far more varied models. You are not limited to knocking out the same old designs that someone else had the skills to design 50-75yrs ago in the first place as they allow you to make patterns or solid parts that would be vey time consuming or even impossible with manual methods.

There is then another skill to learning to operate these new technologies and you don't just press a button you need to know how the part needs to be cut, with what cutter, suitable feeds and speeds etc.

Once again you need reminding that this is not just a Model Engineering forum so anything that goes on in the home workshop is welcome and even if you don't actually print the model parts they can be used for things like nesting jaws, patterns jigs etc to aid the manual construction not remove the need for it.

The other big advantage of the newer technology is that it allows a vast number of hobbyists who would otherwise be sat in their armchairs for 25weeks while the workshop is too cold and another 25 weeks while it is too hot to carry on "making" without going into the workshop when conditions are not favourable or they become physically unable to operate manual machines

I have a Prusa MK3.

I have designed engines by making drawings manually on a drawing board, using AutoCad for 2D drawings, and 3D modeling using Solidworks.

I have made patterns by hand in wood and steel, and have made engine parts on the lathe and mill from bar stock. I have also made patterns on a 3D printer.

I have made castings and machined those.

The reason I use a 3D printer and Solidworks is that I can make the same patterns I would normally make by hand, but can make then more accurately and sometimes more quickly.

It is easier to get the srinkage factor uniform across a pattern if it is 3D printed.

So I recommend learning to do things by hand, but once you have that mastered, then using computers and 3D printers just speeds things up.

My dad was old school, and he would never consider using a computer for anything except a boat anchor.

I am required to use computers and software for work, so it is a natural thing for me to use them, and I am fluent in them outside of the hobby.

To each his own. Its whatever makes you happy.

I started using Solidworks in 2012, and not to many were using 3D at that time.

Many more of those same folks I notice now use 3D modeling, so it seems to be a trend.

I do like to be able to do things by hand, because there is a touch and feel aspect that you can't get with computers and software.

Using the CUT command in Solidworks is much like machining the real metal (virtual machining I call it), and it helps conceptualize how I will machine a part.

I also assemble the 3D components and run them virtually, to test for inteferences, etc.

If the model won't simulate in 3D, then it won't run in the real world either, so that is a helpful verification step before I start cutting metal.

I don't use a CNC, but I see a 3D printer as being very similar to a CNC.

I don't have plans to "go CNC", since I find a 3D printer much more useful for pattern making, especially with hollow items, where I can use a 3D printed pattern also as a core box.

I guess it really just boils down to time. I can start a 3D print, and let it run overnight, and in the morning (if all goes well) the pattern is sitting on the printer bed.

I can design with software faster than any other method I have available.

Use the tools you have available I guess.

Edit: On a side note:

I am having lifting issues with the Prusa bed.

Anyone have a solution for that.

I have not tried the purple stick glue yet, but need to try that.

.

Edited By PatJ on 29/01/2021 10:28:17

Edited By PatJ on 29/01/2021 10:28:37

Edited By PatJ on 29/01/2021 10:30:46

I think 3D printing is part of the engineering skill set. Take a simple job, I don't change the drill chuck on my bench drill very often but invariably cannot find the taper drift when I need to. Solution - engineer a holder for the drift which can be fixed to the drill. Basically just a block with a tapered hole through it. I could 'whittle' it from a lump of wood, I could fabricate it from a couple of metal plates or I could 3D print it. Whatever route I choose I would most likely make some sort of drawing if only a sketch on the back of the proverbial envelope. Now I would suggest that drawing is an engineering skill it demands some sort of knowledge of how things are shaped and fit together it is quite possible to draw something that cannot be manufactured, be it whittled, printed or fabricated.

So armed with drawing what is the best, quickest, easiest way to make the drift holder. Now my woodworking skills are not brilliant and even if I had the right size chisel the resulting item may be a bit bulky due to the constraints of the material. Knowledge of materials - another engineering skill. Hacking up bits of steel plate and bolting them together would be fairly time consuming not to mention some sort of finish to prevent rust or possibly use aluminium. How to fix the parts together, tapped holes and screws, nut & bolt or adhesive, more engineering skills to select the best method.

So to 3D printing, still choices to be made regarding material, print orientation, clearances, times, temperatures all engineering skills needed before letting the computer loose.

Best of all of course once the printer is running I can get on and do some 'real engineering'. The final printed item is fixed to the drill with double sided tape (that may or may not be an engineering skill) . The drift holder works quite well, printed in PETG and places the taper drift Where it is easily accessible.

3D printing - just another engineering skill for use as needed with everything else in the workshop.

John

Depends on which plate you are using.

If the smooth one I find diluted PVA wood glue (about 50/50) works.

The textured plate is quite picky about the Z height. I find it needs to squish the material into the plate quite a lot. Tends to give 'elephants foot' which can be compensated in the slicer.

With both plates make sure they are clean, I find that a wash with soap and water every now and then helps and use IPA (Iso Propyl Alcohol) before each print when the plate is cold.

John

Model engineering is a terrible term for my workshop time.

I've spent a bit of time designing this recently:

That's a fully animated model, and I wish you'd told me before I did it that it's not going to be suitable for a 'model engineer.' As you can see, it will use bought in parts, parts I could make but won't, the belt cover is to be 3D printed because it will give a better part than the sheetmetal one I could make, and so on. There is no way I could have come up with this without 3D CAD, as it shows various issues that weren't obvious as I went along. I'm now looking at the design to reduce some of the features to make it easier to build.

Edited By Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 29/01/2021 11:01:14

I saw someone using Solidworks in about 2011, and marveled at the many useful features, such as the transparent views.

I said to my self "I have got to learn that".

It took me perhaps a year to conceptualize exactly what I was trying to do with 3D modeling, and a bit longer to learn how to use a 3D printer.

I gave up numerous times during that year learning period, and would yell at no one in particular "I WILL NEVER FIGURE OUT THIS &%&$%&^%^&&^ SOFTWARE !!!!!".

It was very frustrating to say the least.

2D CAD was so firmly engrained in my head, that I think people learning 3D from scratch without ever having done 2D perhaps could have an advantage.

These days, I try to leave a paper trail about everything I have learned about 3D modeling on various forums, so perhaps others can avoid some of the trials and tribulations that I suffered.

I do like 3D modeling.

I wish 3D printers were larger and more reliable.

Pattern making is an extra step on top of 3D modeling, and you have to add machining allowances, allow for shrinkage, parting lines, draft angle, fillets on everything. I toggle most of these features off when I create the 2D drawings from the 3D model.

When I started working in 1985, it was all manual drafting boards, and many slide rules were still used.

The computer we used was a mainframe running FORTAN, reading punch cards.

Things have changes a lot since 1985.

.

Edited By PatJ on 29/01/2021 11:22:53

Edited By PatJ on 29/01/2021 11:24:04

I used various 2D drawing software packages for many years at work including Autocad, I actually started out on a drawing board at the beginning of my career. We moved over to Solidworks back in 2005 and it was like a breath of fresh air, would I ever go back to 2D......... NO WAY. I do use 2D now and again for producing pneumatic schematics but hate every minute of it.

When I was on training courses for Solidworks, they told us that people who were moving from 2D found it harder to learn than people who had never used CAD at all.
We dont bother sending our people on the course anymore, I can get someone up and running on Solidworks in a few days with no drama. 

As for CNC I dont think it is for me at my time of life, my workshop is already too crammed with stuff to consider that anyway. But I have just ordered an Ender 3 V2 3D printer which I am quite looking forward to playing with.

Not entirely sure what possessed me to buy it, but I already have a list of things I intend making with it.
Watch this space.

Phil

Edited By Phil P on 29/01/2021 11:40:28

Edited By Phil P on 29/01/2021 11:42:05

Interested to hear you are printing patterns. I know there have been threads on here about 'lost PLA' and of course there are specialist investment printable waxes but wrt plain patterns I recently read the rough surface of a print causes problems with clean pattern removal. Do you have a view on this?

I wonder what blacksmiths said when the first metal turning lathes and pillar drills were introduced?

I had an hour week for a year 'learning' Technical Drawing when I was 14. That was 36 years ago and although it's left me able to read a drawing, I can't manage to create anything more than a rough sketch.

What makes 3D CAD a breath of fresh air is it eliminates the need to know how projections relate to faces, scale to fit on the page, work out geometry for awkward shapes, calculate origins/depths/distances or all of the other techniques that try to represent a 3D object on a flat piece of paper.

Instead you make a rough sketch(Fusion 360 even calls it a sketch) of the basic shape, constrain it so it stays looking like it should, add dimensions and extrude it to a solid. If you make the sketch over the mating part you already built, you can use its dimensions so everything fits as it should even when you make changes. Knowing it's a bit of square material with a hole in it with a plate bolted to each end is how you'll make the part is also how to model it. My grinder head was built around the 20mm diameter post and a layout sketch for it and the spindle axes; if I change the distance between them on the sketch, all the other parts alter with it. I actually did this to bring them as close together as space allowed. The rest of it started with an externally modelled ER32 collet chuck, then its holders, slide, pivoting base, work table, uprights, pivot, linear slides and finished with base, trimming and adjusting sizes as I went.

Animating the joints has shown that the table doesn't need 45 degrees of tilt in each direction which will make cutting the locking slots easier. There will be other changes; the rails for both the grinding head and tool slide are currently to be L-shapes milled from solid; I'll be changing them to two sections bolted together with the fasteners needed to attach them. Looking at it, I don't think it needs to be made from 10mm steel sections or a 6mm thick table. Reducing those would mean less work and material cost.

I could create drawings for each part from the model, but they're deliberately simple so isolating the part to work on and displaying the dimensions directly on it will be enough for most of them.

I've had no training in CAD, but have been modelling most of the parts I've made for the last couple of year to learn about it.

Edited By Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 29/01/2021 13:14:32

Is this an unusually narrow view of what Model Engineering should be? I spot some misunderstandings too.

My random collection of Model Engineer magazines shows our forefathers considered almost anything technical fair game. One of my 1919 magazines has no models in it at all, and a long article on Wireless Telegraphy.

While computer programmers need deep computer skills, most users don't. Only necessary to understand how to stop and start programs, and to learn how to navigate applications of interest. 3D CAD is just another tool that happens to run on a computer. Like anything else it has to be learnt.

CAD isn't super-human. It saves time and money, for example by automatically adding facts to model as they develop. By designating a part is made of steel, the computer can calculate the weight automatically. Even better, the weight is recalculated if the material is changed to something else, like Aluminium. Once a computer model includes physical characteristics, CAD is able to do more advanced stuff like identifying where designs are too weak or too strong (overweight). Information like centre of gravity is available as a by product - the designer doesn't have to use reference books, do tedious calculations by hand, or build several prototypes. And once a model is defined, it can be imported into other models, so standard parts like gears and fasteners are a doodle.

CAD doesn't do the most important part of design - imagination! So there's little difference between conceiving a manual design and the same in CAD. CAD has no magic button to convert vague ideas into reality. Designers still have to plan, think, decide and review. Once learned, CAD relieves the designer of most of the drudge work, but it doesn't do creativity. That's our job.

CNC is just another time saver. In the good old days metal was shaped with cold chisels or forging. Then came files and grinding, which some at the time considered a threat. Milling machines are basically motorised precision files, and they too were disapproved of by traditionalists. Preceded by automatics and other mass-production methods, CNC is just another step down the same road: it keeps machines busier than humans can manage. Each change shifted the nature of the skills and techniques used, but they are all valid. Being different doesn't make anything wrong or inferior.

I don't have a problem with traditional skills or modern methods, they're both wonderful. Hand and brain are equally admirable. Nor do I have a problem with history, motorbikes, aircraft, electricity, chemistry, astronomy or computing on the forum. Diversity is one of the main attractions.

Dave

The very first thing they teach people on a Solidworks training course is that you have to get the "Design Intent" sorted out before you start modelling anything.

Basically that dictates how you proceed, for instance if you are designing a Tee slotted table for a machine, you would most likely start with a sketch of the end view and then extrude your solid shape form that sketch to whatever length you want the table.
If the design intent changed it is then very easy to alter the original sketch, or the amount you extruded it.

If you started with a sketch of the top of the table you would have a lot more work to do if something changed later on.

Another thing that can be done is "Design in Context", that means if you change a dimension on one part, the rest of the assembly will update to reflect those changes if you do it right, so a design change request can be implemented very quickly and the results seen in minutes rather than hours.

The other massive advantage of 3D CAD is its ability to produce fully dimensioned manufacturing drawings with very little effort. Then if the design changes, the drawing automatically updates as well.

I am very lucky to have been using it at work for years, and also use it for my hobby as well.

We generally only upgrade every three or maybe four years, so at work we currently use SW 2018, and at home I still use SW 2014, the upgrades add a few bells and whistles but are not always going to change much for 95% of what you use.

Phil

Edited By Phil P on 29/01/2021 14:21:38