SillyOldDuffer | 20/06/2023 12:18:33 | |||||
10668 forum posts 2415 photos | Posted by noel shelley on 20/06/2023 10:11:57:
Thanks for this thread Julian ! Having always had an interest in radio and the question of what was received and how, was 1912 a good year for skip conditions ? ... This graph is from the Wikipedia article on Sunspots, and attributed to NASA. It shows that the sunspot cycle was at a minimum in 1912. Radiation from the sun varies on a 22 year cycle, not heat, but wavelengths that ionise the upper atmosphere, causing the Northern Lights and many invisible electronic phenomenon that affect radio signals all the time. Solar Storms occasionally disrupt power distribution systems on a continental scale. What ionisation does depends on the layers height and the frequency of the signal. The layer can act as a filter or a mirror. Below a certain frequency, ionised layers tend to absorb radio energy, which is why the range of low frequency signals increases at night and drops during the day. In daylight, the layer is reenergised by the sun and gets thicker. The mirror is closer to the ground, reducing skip distance, and much of the signal is absorbed, not reflected. At night, the layer thins out, absorbing less of the signal, and the effective height of the mirror rises. More energy is reflected, and it's reflected from higher up, resulting in greater range. As frequency rises, the ionises layer becomes more reflective, allowing short wave signals to bounce repeatedly, potentially circling the planet. But the mirror is easily penetrated by very short waves, which tend to be limited to just over the horizon range, and bounce off almost everything. The above is a simplification: there are actually several layers, not always present, at different heights. As a result there are plenty of opportunities for anomalous propagation, where signals suddenly drop out or travel unexpected long distances. Like the weather, propagation is fairly predictable. Depending on the date and time of day it's possible to exploit 'conditions' by selecting frequencies and antenna to suit the path and distance. Far from perfect service, for example the US Navy failed to warn Pearl Harbour that Japan was about to declare war because 'conditions' had temporarily disabled their direct radio link. Seems no-one though of trying the US Army circuit, so the message was sent as a civilian telegram, taking too long because it went by a mix of cable and shorter wireless links. The message was delivered by a man on a push-bike during the attack. What effect might the sunspot low in 1912 have had on Artie? It will have caused long wave signals to travel further than normal, especially 300 metre wave signals. On the other hand low sunspots make transmission of short wave harmonics less likely. It's hard to tell because wireless equipment in 1912 wasn't tuned. Later equipment is much sharper, essentially only sending and receiving on one narrow frequency. Artie's transmitter is only tuned very broadly by the aerial, which would respond well to fundamental and multiples, but also to almost everything else. His receiver is only slightly better. I believe the Titanic's antenna type tends to suppress even harmonics, but not odd. So a 300 metre fundamental might have a strong 75 metres component, that skipped, and was detected by Artie's simple system. The layer hypothesis was suggested in 1902, but there wasn't enough evidence to confirm the theory until 1923. Early copies of Model Engineer magazine are full of Wireless projects. My 1919 example is entitled 'The Model Engineer and Electrician'. Lots of brass. Quite a lot of Artie's equipment is made with Model Engineering type metal work, greatly facilitated by a lathe which could also be used to wind those giant induction coils. I'm fairly sure his morse key is home-made, and probably many other small parts. I'd like to know where the metalwork was done. Possibly in the mill, more likely in one of the neighbouring collieries or railway workshops, where lathes were essential. Old maps reveal this part of Wales wasn't an agricultural backwater: young Artie probably had access to a wide range of technical skills and facilities. Dave
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Michael Gilligan | 20/06/2023 12:56:08 | |||||
![]() 23121 forum posts 1360 photos | Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 20/06/2023 12:18:33:
[…]
I'd like to know where the metalwork was done. Possibly in the mill, more likely in one of the neighbouring collieries or railway workshops, where lathes were essential. Old maps reveal this part of Wales wasn't an agricultural backwater: young Artie probably had access to a wide range of technical skills and facilities.
. One of my recent references clearly [albeit perhaps erroneously] states that Artie had a home-built lathe that was driven by the water-wheel. MichaelG. Edited By Michael Gilligan on 20/06/2023 13:00:34 | |||||
Buffer | 20/06/2023 18:25:58 | |||||
430 forum posts 171 photos | Talking of Titanic. How many of you would go to view the Titanic in a sub controlled by one button and a Logitech play station controller?
Edited By Buffer on 20/06/2023 18:37:14 | |||||
noel shelley | 20/06/2023 18:44:06 | |||||
2308 forum posts 33 photos | Certainly NOT me ! My thoughts are with the poor souls for whom the search is on ! Noel. | |||||
julian atkins | 20/06/2023 21:46:47 | |||||
![]() 1285 forum posts 353 photos | Artie Moore’s 16th December 1909 article for ME (about his horizontal steam engine) mentions that he had made his own lathe. It isn’t a very detailed article in many respects, and doesn’t mention how his lathe was powered or where it was located. Running it off the water wheel as claimed many years later could easily be supposition. I’m not too happy with it being run off the Mill water wheel. He stated in the 1909 article that he started the horizontal steam engine some 4 years earlier, and was pretty much a lone hand making it without drawings, and had only recently been aware of the ME magazine. It was of 1 9/16” bore and 1 1/2” stroke and he altered its single eccentric to later have proper Stephensons valve gear with a reversing mechanism. At 20 psi it did 800 rpm. No details of any boiler. I suppose if he could make a dynamo run off the Mill, then he was capable of making an electric motor? But I think that in 1909 that would be of greater significance and interest than his rather basic horizontal steam engine in 1909, and the timings are not consistent, as his interest in matters relating to electricity and wireless telegraphy would appear to be after 1909. Or perhaps he just called upon one of his brothers to operate a treadle for the lathe? (My own lathe is pretty basic with no back gear, and I’ve turned 3 sets of wheels for miniature locos and a 5” gauge wagon simply by turning by hand the end of the mandrel by hand for certain stages! For other locos I used other ME club members’ lathes on the condition that I cleaned them down thoroughly removing all the cast iron crap left on the lathe!). In Artie’s article of 1909 he mentioned boring out roughly the bore of the cylinder, then finishing it with emery. It was stated to be a brass cylinder. He mentions making some of his own castings, which I did myself for my first loco except in my case this was in the facilities of Ryde High School metal work department when I was in the 6th form. He states that the base for the engine and the flywheel were cast by a local foundry. My first workshop was in my bedroom in my parents’ house. Then I bought a nice but small shed to go in their garden. So perhaps certain parallels with Artie, who definitely did have his wireless telegraphy set in a wooden shed behind the Mill cottages and barn. I don’t think that I would want to be in the Mill with it’s dust and noise, and I would want to be in my own ‘space’ and not to be constrained by only doing stuff when the Mill was in operation. I also don’t think that the Mill was particularly active by 1909. This isn’t like other parts of the UK with huge fields of corn and barley etc. It was really turning into a wholesaler of stuff. One of the Kelly’s Directory entries of the period includes a shop as part of the Mill. The Gwent Archive doesn’t have a full set of the Kelly’s Directory, but of those that they have and I looked at this was pretty clear.
Edited By julian atkins on 20/06/2023 22:07:00 | |||||
julian atkins | 20/06/2023 23:36:32 | |||||
![]() 1285 forum posts 353 photos | Hi Dave (SillyOldDuffer), Can I ask you about the coherer please that apparently Artie used. It is subsequently claimed much later on that Artie upgraded his wireless telegraphy set after October 1911 or thereabouts so that by the time Titanic sank his set was not that as per the Daily Sketch pics that we now have the glass plate negatives of, and was better. I don’t think he would have had much time to do this anyway, as he then went away to London to study for 3 months, but is there evidence of a coherer in the Daily Sketch pic of the inside of his shed? I don’t think you saw one in the pic that you annotated. If not, had he already upgraded his set by the beginning of October 1911 when the pic you so helpfully analysed was published? (This would actually be potentially quite an important matter in considering the veracity or otherwise of other accounts). Many thanks again for all your help on this. Cheers, Julian Edited By julian atkins on 21/06/2023 00:03:38 | |||||
julian atkins | 21/06/2023 02:01:14 | |||||
![]() 1285 forum posts 353 photos | I suppose (and not state as any fact, or based on any primary source evidence) that Artie Moore might have been very happy to get away from Gelligroes Mill where he had had this most debilitating accident in his youth. What we do know is that although ill in 1948/9, Artie was not interred or cremated back in the land of his birth, but when he died his family travelled to Bristol for the service. I find that very odd.
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Hopper | 21/06/2023 05:20:59 | |||||
![]() 7881 forum posts 397 photos | Posted by julian atkins on 21/06/2023 02:01:14:
I suppose (and not state as any fact, or based on any primary source evidence) that Artie Moore might have been very happy to get away from Gelligroes Mill where he had had this most debilitating accident in his youth. What we do know is that although ill in 1948/9, Artie was not interred or cremated back in the land of his birth, but when he died his family travelled to Bristol for the service. I find that very odd.
According to the AMAR Society/Wikipedia he had returned from Jamaica very ill with Leukaemia and went into a convalescent home in Bristol, where he died. I would suppose that was where the body was so that was where they held the service. He had been away from Gelligroes for almost 40 years by that stage so quite possible he no longer had close family living there nor other strong current connection. His parents could have quite possibly been dead by 1949? Haven't seen any mention of whether Artie had a wife or kids, but that side of the family may well have been from somewhere other than Gelligroes and decided where to have the funeral. Or maybe he was a lone old man and the convalescent home made the funeral arrangements. I guess we will never know.
Edited By Hopper on 21/06/2023 05:42:49 | |||||
Michael Gilligan | 21/06/2023 05:26:05 | |||||
![]() 23121 forum posts 1360 photos | Posted by julian atkins on 20/06/2023 21:46:47:
My first workshop was in my bedroom in my parents’ house. Then I bought a nice but small shed to go in their garden. So perhaps certain parallels with Artie, who definitely did have his wireless telegraphy set in a wooden shed behind the Mill cottages and barn. I don’t think that I would want to be in the Mill with it’s dust and noise, and I would want to be in my own ‘space’ and not to be constrained by only doing stuff when the Mill was in operation. I also don’t think that the Mill was particularly active by 1909. This isn’t like other parts of the UK with huge fields of corn and barley etc. It was really turning into a wholesaler of stuff. . I’m sure you are personally aware of the layout, Julian … but I think some of the popular accounts might have become obfuscated by the fact that the [old] Mill is quite a small stand-alone building. I have already posted a link to the location on Google Earth, but this news story from 2020 includes an excellent modern photo of the building: **LINK** https://caerphilly.observer/news/991605/sign-that-pre-dates-world-war-ii-goes-missing-from-watermill/ My own assumption [please correct me if I am wrong] is that the Moore’s general business would have been conducted from adjacent premises, rather than this specific building. MichaelG. . Edit: __ see also https://www.francisfrith.com/pontllanfraith/photos . Edit: __ and, to support my assumption: https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/300001880-gelli-groes-mill-pontllanfraith Edited By Michael Gilligan on 21/06/2023 05:45:21 | |||||
Michael Gilligan | 21/06/2023 06:08:10 | |||||
![]() 23121 forum posts 1360 photos | Just found this [poor quality] video: **LINK** https://www.facebook.com/WindingH/videos/gelligroes-mill/294412108361415/ … intriguing at about 03:18 … could that be the aforementioned Pelton Wheel in the background ? MichaelG. | |||||
Hopper | 21/06/2023 06:15:20 | |||||
![]() 7881 forum posts 397 photos | An interesting aside: The first over-sea radio message ever sent was in Wales, by Guglielmo Marconi in 1897. Working for the UK post office at that time, Marconi was invited to Wales by Cardiff Post Office engineer George Kemp to perform the first over-sea transmission tests. See story here LINK iN 1913 Marconi opened the first longwave radio station at Caernarfon, Wales, visiting the area frequently during its construction, and the construction of another station on the Wales coast at Tywyn. Details: LINK Marconi's mentor was Caernarfon-born Sir William Preece, chief engineer of the UK Post Office and wireless telegraph pioneer. Could this longstanding link between Marconi, Wales and radio have led to his meeting with Artie? Tenuous but not impossible. But it does show that the idea of Marconi visiting remote parts of Wales in 1911/12/13 is not as outlandish as it might seem at first blush. He could have visited Artie on his way to or from one of his installations.
Edited By Hopper on 21/06/2023 06:38:21 | |||||
julian atkins | 21/06/2023 09:00:11 | |||||
![]() 1285 forum posts 353 photos | The problem I have is that say if Marconi had visited this part of South Wales in 1912 there is no contemporaneous record of such a visit that I have been able to find so far. It isn't even mentioned in Artie Moore's obituary in1949. All I can find is that at the Gwent Archive the Monmouthshire 'Special Higher Education sub-committee' minutes of 12th June 1912 record :- "Mr Arthur E. Moore. We have heard with pleasure that Mr Arthur E. Moore of Pontllanfraith, has been appointed to a post under the Marconi International Marine Communication Company Limited, and we have authorised the payment to him of the balance of his Bursary amounting to £3 17s 6d" | |||||
Hopper | 21/06/2023 09:46:34 | |||||
![]() 7881 forum posts 397 photos | Yes it would be interesting to know where the local visit angle came into the story. Perhaps from a surviving family member in later years who passed it on to either the AMAR Society or the Blackwood Historical Society? Those two societies or their spokespersons seem to be the quoted source of all the 21st century media stories that pop up on the net. And every second or third one seems to mention Marconi visiting Artie at the mill. There is mention of a niece of Artie's, one Margaret Hopkins, opening a Titanic centenary display at the Winding House Museum in 2012 HERE . Wonder of she is still around and contactable through the museum or white pages etc? She may have spoken to her uncle Artie about such things, or heard family stories about them. So obviously there has been some contact between Artie's surviving family and the museum/historical society types. Pretty good chance that is where information not in the early press reports could have come from. It also mentions the Blackwood and District Amateur Radio Society being involved. Another interesting snippet I found (laid up on the couch today with a bung foot and nothing to do) is this LINK amazing first-hand account of the night by the radio operator of the nearby RMS Olympic. It captures fully the confusion of the situation and the essential but painstakingly slow role relaying radio messages played. Real Boys Own Adventure stuff. He does mention interestingly that reception was poor that night due to "atmospherics" which would perhaps not be conducive to radio waves traveling exceptionally long distances. Well worth a read just for the "ripping yarn" aspect.
Edited By Hopper on 21/06/2023 09:49:05 | |||||
Neil Wyatt | 21/06/2023 10:35:40 | |||||
![]() 19226 forum posts 749 photos 86 articles | Posted by Hopper on 20/06/2023 11:07:15:
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 20/06/2023 10:28:45:
Regarding the model engine, and thereby the prize … We may need some international co-operation here : **LINK** https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/serial?id=modelengelec MichaelG. I wonder if anyone on the forum has a copy of the original ME article on Artie's model engine they can post? It was published in 1909, Volume 21, Issue 451, Page 585 under the byline of Arthur E Moore. If sufficient detail is included it would be an interesting project to make a replica of the engine of the chap who is reputed to have received the Titanic's SOS and gone on to pioneer sonar.
If is of reasonably modest length, I'd be happy to re-publish it in MEW, with some of the observations made in this thread - there's clearly more than a smidgin of interest!
Neil | |||||
Neil Wyatt | 21/06/2023 10:38:01 | |||||
![]() 19226 forum posts 749 photos 86 articles | Posted by Michael Gilligan on 19/06/2023 19:03:16:
Amidst this utterly fascinating discussion … could we spare a few moments thought for those on the ‘sightseeing’ sub which is currently lost. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65953872 MichaelG.
Close to home. My grandfather was a radio operator (and sonar) in the navy and spent some worrying time stuck to the bottom in a K-class sub. Neil | |||||
Neil Wyatt | 21/06/2023 10:42:52 | |||||
![]() 19226 forum posts 749 photos 86 articles | Posted by julian atkins on 19/06/2023 19:47:05:
So let's look at the above 'Artie Moore Amateur Radio Society' website you state you relied upon, rather than the Wikipedia entries on Artie, or Gelligroes Mill, or do say an online check of the British Newspaper Archive... I won't get into a petty exchange, but I thought my post above made it clear I looked at multiple sources; much of my difficulty coming from the fact that they all give different overviews of the same basic story. Neil | |||||
Hopper | 21/06/2023 11:27:05 | |||||
![]() 7881 forum posts 397 photos | Posted by Neil Wyatt on 21/06/2023 10:35:40:
Posted by Hopper on 20/06/2023 11:07:15:
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 20/06/2023 10:28:45:
Regarding the model engine, and thereby the prize … We may need some international co-operation here : **LINK** https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/serial?id=modelengelec MichaelG. I wonder if anyone on the forum has a copy of the original ME article on Artie's model engine they can post? It was published in 1909, Volume 21, Issue 451, Page 585 under the byline of Arthur E Moore. If sufficient detail is included it would be an interesting project to make a replica of the engine of the chap who is reputed to have received the Titanic's SOS and gone on to pioneer sonar.
If is of reasonably modest length, I'd be happy to re-publish it in MEW, with some of the observations made in this thread - there's clearly more than a smidgin of interest!
Neil That would be great. Yes there seems to be quite a bit of interest. A fascinating character one way or another, or several others. It really is a shame he was not quite famous enough for someone to have written his biography in the day and that he died youngish so never wrote his memoirs in his dotage. Sounds like there is so much more about him we do not know. Radio reception at the mill was just the start of it all. | |||||
julian atkins | 21/06/2023 23:27:06 | |||||
![]() 1285 forum posts 353 photos | I’m not too sure about Hopper’s last post in that it would have been extremely newsworthy at the time in April 1912 if Artie Moore had received any of Titanic’s distress signals. Ergo he had a front page article about him in the Daily Sketch newspaper on 7th October 1911 with pics about the Italy/Libya Declaration of War. And the death of the Russian premier in the last week of September 1911 in newspaper coverage plus the ramming of RMS Olympic (20th September 1911). It really ought not to be have been a surprise to the locality (including the local Police) that Artie might have had a receipt of signals of distress from Titanic, and that the newspapers both locally and nationally would be extremely interested! And probably with payment. Yet 3 of us have been researching contemporaneous newspaper archives and we can find so far absolutely nothing about Artie and Titanic sinking and linking them. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Nothing until a brief sentence devoid of any detail in his obituary and the ‘by line’ in the Merthyr Express newspaper 5th February 1949. Given that in December 1909 Artie Moore wrote an article for ME, and was quite happy to be interviewed by newspapers and photographed in late September/early October 1911, he then apparently remains completely silent on matters Titanic at the time. Just doesn’t add up to me. | |||||
Hopper | 22/06/2023 01:10:46 | |||||
![]() 7881 forum posts 397 photos | Yes the lack of a Titanic report is certainly inconsistent with reporting of his earlier efforts. There are also several possible reasons Artie was disbelieved in the early stages and thus not reported on: 1) The Titanic was "known" to be unsinkable. 2) The owners and the insurers were both putting out press releases and statements denying anything was amiss. Then once the truth trickled in through official channels, the Atlantic news wire etc, there would have been so much sensational Titanic news to publish that Artie's early contribution could have paled and been forgotten. The previous stories of his intercepting messages about Italy declaring war on Libya etc are very much the sort of thing journalists publish on the dreaded "quiet news day", which the days following the Titanic disaster obviously were not. On the other hand, you would think one of the small local newspapers in Wales would publish Artie's role as a local connection to a major national/international event, something local papers always try to do. But maybe they just missed it. Or maybe Artie took off to London for his studies or new job or whatever and was not contactable. Or a hundred other possibilities. Sounds like we will never know for sure.
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SillyOldDuffer | 22/06/2023 12:00:06 | |||||
10668 forum posts 2415 photos | Posted by julian atkins on 20/06/2023 23:36:32:
Hi Dave (SillyOldDuffer), Can I ask you about the coherer please that apparently Artie used. It is subsequently claimed much later on that Artie upgraded his wireless telegraphy set after October 1911 or thereabouts so that by the time Titanic sank his set was not that as per the Daily Sketch pics that we now have the glass plate negatives of, and was better. ...I don't think Artie's receiver has a coherer. The receiver part of the picture is unclear, so I might be wrong, but joining the dots I believe it takes a different approach - an electrolytic detector. An electrolytic detector, rather than a coherer, is suggested by the clearly seen rheostat (potentiometer). Both detectors extract the message signal from the transmitted wave, though they do so in different ways. A coherer is a small tube containing metal filings that clump together when a high-frequency wave arrives, causing the DC resistance to drop and the headphones to click along with the morse characters. Insensitive, and the tube has to be tapped to un-clump the filings. If anyone fancies making a coherer, Nickel Silver is suitable - file down an 50p coin. Very popular in the early days - easy to make, but not ideal. An electrolytic detector is a sharp metal point just making contact with an electrolyte such as dilute Sulphuric Acid. It has to be biased with a small adjustable DC voltage, which I think is provided by the rheostat. They work like a diode, are more sensitive than a coherer, and don't have to be tapped. Bit harder to make, and have to be kept still - fine on a fixed bench, hopeless on a ship or vehicle. The Titanic had a patent Marconi magnetic detector, an expensive device, better than a coherer, and reliable at sea. In them, the high-frequency wave causes a magnetic field to collapse, which clicks the headphones. Artie definitely doesn't have one! As an enthusiastic experimenter during a period of rapid development, I'm sure Artie made many changes to his rig. What's shown in the 1911 photograph is very primitive by modern standards - everything about it can be improved! I judge it a notch or two behind the best professional equipment available in 1912, but still in the same league. For example, Artie's installed a simple way of tuning the receiver, but no way of tuning the transmitter. I'm sure he was thinking about improving both. The most important part of the installation is the aerial, requiring a lot of wire in the air, as high as possible, and in the right place. My interest in Marconi has been piqued, so I've ordered a copy his biography, 'MARCONI: The Man Who Networked the World.' Published in 2016, I'm expecting it to shatter my Boy's Own Paper view of Marconi as radio hero and all round good chap! I already know he was a sharp business man, perhaps of the worst type, who changed and denied his own story repeatedly during his lifetime. As did his company and supporters. Most contemporary accounts are highly managed, the cracks only appearing when versions are compared with each other and independent evidence. Most early accounts of his doings are suspect, a complex web of genuine progress and deceit. I wonder if the biography will mention Artie Moore? I'm sure my dad won't be in it. He worked for Marconi circa 1990 and Guglielmo died in 1937! Dave Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 22/06/2023 12:01:13 |
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