Michael Gilligan | 27/06/2021 11:22:24 |
![]() 23121 forum posts 1360 photos | Posted by Nicholas Farr on 26/06/2021 23:45:52:
.
. Thanks for the measurements, and the very informative photos, Nick [ in the eternal quest for understanding ] Just one question, if I may : Given the obvious absence of a picture of the second cotter … Is it ‘fully floating’ [as per the Duplex sketch] or is it guided/located in some way ? MichaelG. |
Nicholas Farr | 27/06/2021 11:33:00 |
![]() 3988 forum posts 1799 photos | Hi MichaelG, the second cotter is fully floating, but the hole in the casting on that side is only about 10mm in diameter, I guess this is to allow air to escape for it to move OK. Regards Nick. |
Michael Gilligan | 27/06/2021 11:34:52 |
![]() 23121 forum posts 1360 photos | Thanks for that, Nick … Much appreciated MichaelG. |
Nicholas Farr | 28/06/2021 17:31:06 |
![]() 3988 forum posts 1799 photos | Posted by Nicholas Farr on 26/06/2021 23:45:52:
Hi, I had a look at the arrangement on the table of an old pillar drill that I have. The pillar is a solid 3 inch diameter steel bar and the steel cotter with the hole for the bolt is 0.996 inches in diameter and 1.4 inches long and I assume the other one is the same, and as it will only come out by removing the table, I didn't measure it. The distance between the pillar and the cotter bolt is 3 / 16 inches, the bolt being half an inch in diameter and the hole for the cotter I removed is 1.004 inches, thus giving an 8 thou clearance between the two. There doesn't appear to be any noticeable wear on the cotters or the hole they are in and the table has no noticeable slop on the pillar, the table being a fairly heavy cast iron one. the distance between the two cotters when they are in contact with the pillar is approximately a quarter of an inch without being clamped up. The photo below bears evidence to Duncan Webster's CAD drawing that the outboard end makes contact first and there doesn't seem to be much hard contact to most of the area. Regards Nick.
Hi, I've had a bit of a senior moment in the measurement between the pillar and the cotter bolt. Instead of it being 3 / 16 inches, it should in fact say 3 thou. Sorry if you were all scratching your heads about a big mistake. Regards Nick. |
david bennett 8 | 03/07/2021 16:05:24 |
245 forum posts 19 photos | Derek, a bit of practical advice here **LINK** |
Howard Lewis | 03/07/2021 17:32:27 |
7227 forum posts 21 photos | From a practical standpoint, split cotters would seem to prevent movement of the main bar, in two ways. 1 ) The two halves of the split cotter grip the bar like brake shoes, and being a close fit in their bore prevent rotary or linear movement of the bar. 2 ) By clamping against the bar, and having a gap between the ends, there would be a wedging action which exerts a force between the one side of the collets and their bore, forcing the bar outwards against the bore in which it is located. The frictional forces resulting will tend to prevent the bar from angular or linear movement. If either of these hypotheses is correct, the split cotter does what is required of it, in preventing movement in any plane, once clearances have been taken up. If anyone is so inclined, reference to the dimensions of a particular arrangement can allow the forces to be calculated, having made assumptions about the coefficients of friction of the materials and threads involved. Howard |
Peter Cook 6 | 03/07/2021 17:48:35 |
462 forum posts 113 photos | Is there any theory/rule of thumb about the best diameter for the cotter compared with the shaft it locks. All the examples shown have the cotter smaller than the clamped shaft. Is it just convenience, or is there something about the clamping action that suggests a particular ratio of diameters? I want to lock a 10mm steel shaft, and was planning to use a 10mm brass cotter. Would that be too big, or just unnecessary? |
John Baron | 03/07/2021 18:09:17 |
![]() 520 forum posts 194 photos | Posted by Howard Lewis on 03/07/2021 17:32:27:
From a practical standpoint, split cotters would seem to prevent movement of the main bar, in two ways. 1 ) The two halves of the split cotter grip the bar like brake shoes, and being a close fit in their bore prevent rotary or linear movement of the bar. 2 ) By clamping against the bar, and having a gap between the ends, there would be a wedging action which exerts a force between the one side of the collets and their bore, forcing the bar outwards against the bore in which it is located. The frictional forces resulting will tend to prevent the bar from angular or linear movement. If either of these hypotheses is correct, the split cotter does what is required of it, in preventing movement in any plane, once clearances have been taken up. If anyone is so inclined, reference to the dimensions of a particular arrangement can allow the forces to be calculated, having made assumptions about the coefficients of friction of the materials and threads involved. Howard No it doesn't prevent rotary motion, nor linear motion until the two halves are pulled together. As long as there is a few thou of gap between the halves when tightened they will firmly clamp whatever they are pressed against. As far as a diameter for the cotter is concerned a larger area for the clamping surface simply means that the force required to lock a shaft is less than a small area. This is 14 mm diameter cotter intended to secure the block to a 35 mm diameter post using an M6 screw. That gap is just under 2 mm.
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Mark Rand | 03/07/2021 19:56:21 |
1505 forum posts 56 photos | Posted by John Baron on 03/07/2021 18:09:17:
As far as a diameter for the cotter is concerned a larger area for the clamping surface simply means that the force required to lock a shaft is less than a small area. Friction is a function of force, not area. A larger area won't make any difference. Edited By Mark Rand on 03/07/2021 20:01:46 |
Martin Kyte | 03/07/2021 22:24:17 |
![]() 3445 forum posts 62 photos | My reading of the action is that the cotter acts as an efficient force multiplier when the effective taper angle is shallow. Moving the taper inwards forces the main bar hard against the wall of the bore on the opposite side to the cotter. A steeper taper angle (as in a larger cotter) will reduce the mechanical advantage and require more force to be generated by the nuts or ball handles for the same grip. Just considering locking action cotters could be just plain wedges but curved surfaces are kinder to the bar and don't generate marks and dimples to the same extent a plain wedge would. regards Martin |
Howard Lewis | 04/07/2021 08:43:34 |
7227 forum posts 21 photos | John Baron, That was exactly the point that i was making, that when clamped to the bar angular and linear movement is prevented. The whole purpose for using split cotters, surely? Howard |
John Baron | 04/07/2021 09:47:47 |
![]() 520 forum posts 194 photos | Posted by Howard Lewis on 04/07/2021 08:43:34:
John Baron, That was exactly the point that i was making, that when clamped to the bar angular and linear movement is prevented. The whole purpose for using split cotters, surely? Howard Yes I agree ! I misread your post then couldn't edit mine. I do apologise.
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Howard Lewis | 04/07/2021 10:52:00 |
7227 forum posts 21 photos | Hi John, NO problem! Won't be the first time that I have misunderstood something, nor the last! Would suggest not using brass for the split collets. The object is to grip the bar / quill, so the coefficient of friction between brass and steel will be less than steel against steel. A M6 thread can exert quite a force, so a 10 mm diamter cotter should grip quite well (Assumes that the 10 mm refres to the cotter.. If the shaft to be locked is 10 mm diameter, the forces involved will be relatively low, so you are probably thinking in terms something more like a 4 mm cotter, with possibly a M3 thread. (Which is relatively big, possibly 2 mm or a good old 4 or 6 BA ) Howard
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