Machinery Directive and CE marking

If my own copy of the original Pressure Equipment Regulations is a guide, the bumph contains a helpful drawing of the CE mark, drawn on graph-paper and dimensioned to help you copy it!

Yes, the Regulations are by and for lawyers, but bodies like the Department for Trade also publish guides for people like company managers and design engineers to help them obey the UK's Government's versions of the Directives. These guides are by and for the technical people.

Actually the Learned Counsel's version is illuminating in that the safety of the product seems secondary to imports-control and keeping so-called "Notified Bodies" (the test laboratories and certificate-writers) in clover. As I recall the PER lists several criteria then adds something like "and has in fact to be safe" almost as an afterthought.

One thing you will never know is who is on the hidden EU committees which discuss and draught individual Directives. Minutes copies I have seen credit only by nationality, not personal names, not even in an introduction. They state things like, "France suggested [...], Britain agreed and added [...] but Sweden pointed out [...] ". It is all anonymous....

I concur with your brother, a fabric aircraft cover does not require CE marking and it would be illegal to put on on them. In fact they need no approval of any kind.

Put into use is in MD 1.7.1, 1.7.4, 4.1.3, and The Supply of Machinery (Safety) Regulations 2008v (UK implementation of directive section 3.9 says " A person who is not a responsible person shall not put machinery into service unless it satisfies the applicable essential health and safety requirements and is safe" i.e is CE compliant and section 7 says "
(1) No responsible person shall place machinery on the market or put it into service unless it is safe.
(2)Before machinery is placed on the market or put into service, the responsible person must— (a)ensure that the applicable essential health and safety requirements are satisfied in respect of it; (b)ensure that the technical file is compiled and made available in accordance with the requirements of Annex VII (Part 7 of Schedule 2), part A;

The other directives have similar provisions.

Robert G8RPI.

Russell you are correct in te the core directives are transcribed to countries law, but Andrew and Phil are most certainly NOT correct. If the requirements only applied to selling you could build or import items which were unsafe. See my post above for put into use/service requirements.

Robert G8RPI.

Also from the official MD application guide

The cut of bit refers to used or modified equipment and references guidance on the amount of refubishment or modification that requires compliance.

Pretty clear.

Robert G8RPI.

Robert,

All that's happening here is that people are applying interpretations to regulations about circumstances they were never drafted to deal with.

My I suggest you contact the HSE and ask them what the situation is with regard to hobbyists?

Taking my lead from PUWER I think it's clear these rules apply to the self-employed and also volunteers working in the charge of an organisation, but PUWER says nothing about hobbyists.

Neil

If it is "pretty clear" Robert, why are you asking the question? You most certainly CAN import goods which are not CE marked, what you cannot do is offer them for sale , as importer, you are responsible for providing CE assurance if you resell. All equipment put into use in a workplace must be safe, however, this is only incidentally under the CE legislation, first and foremost is the HSE requirement. You can build or import items that are unsafe (should you want to), who would stop you? As has been said in this thread the mechanism and manpower required for enforcement does not exist, and the only requirement under CE is that you posess paper work that "assures compliance" If it is only you using it in a private workshop, it is no ones business but your own, and the risk ends with you. much of the electrical equipment from Bangood etc does not comply with CE, ( watch John Ward and bigclivelive on you tube to see some of it being tested) but it is sold worldwide, and anyone can order from them and import effectively into the EEA without certification. Whether that is a wise thing to do is another matter, but it does not change the fact that the mechanism to prevent this happening simply does not exist. My point is that CE marking does not prove safety or compliance, or that the goods have recieved any testing independantly of the manufacturers, it merely assures that the manufacturer, and the importer are in possesion of documentation that states that the item in question meets the required CE standard. Yesterday, I fixed my mothers vacuum cleaner, it is made in China, badged Morphy Richards, and some importer somewhere in the UK probably has a dusty shelf with a load of CE compliance paperwork on it pertaining to this product.The problem is that the actual product is a piece of shoddily made plastic trash that is barely able to perform its said function seems to be irrelevant. Your fawning deference to this supposed standard is rather odd, As I said before, we used to set the standards for the world, and we have let those standards slip terribly. CE is not a system to maintain or raise standards, or to ensure safety, it is an elaborate buck passing exercise where the responsibility for the safety of a product is shifted from the EU back onto the manufacturer, or the importer, which means, in the event of an accident, unless you can interest your (now virtually non existent) trading standards dept, you will end up suing the importer or manufacturer yourself to get compensation for the damage caused by their shoddily made goods. Good luck with that. It seems that you actually WANT to live in a police state where everything and everyone is "compliant" You should watch Terry Gilliams brilliant movie "Brazil". It is a very clear illustration of the type of world the EU is trying to create with this type of legislation. The sooner we are out the better, and then we can dump CE and set real standards and start refusing the piss poor quality we get from the far east, via European legislation, at the moment.

Here is an interesting though Robert, for the purpose of this document, what is the definition of "safe". Is that "safe under all circumstances", is it "not likely to cause an accident under normal use" then of course you would have to define "normal use". Why would you build a machine that you knew to be unsafe? Is it possible to build a machine that is safe in all circumstances? I would posit that it is not possible. It is still possible to have an accident on a lathe, even if it meets all the HSE requirements, so is it safe or not? What is the definition of "Responsible person", As I said, a buck passing excercise, have you ever wondered why HSE do not inspect a factory before it is put into use? I will tell you, if they had inspected and passed it as safe, they would be responsible for that safety, as it is, they neatly pass the buck to "the responsible person", and only inspect the workplace after an accident has happened, in order to decide who was at fault, ie apportion blame, and collect revenue, non of which is paid to the victim. CE compliance does not assure safety, it merely shifts the responsibility for safety. The above is a very badly drafted document, that any reasonably competent lawyer could drive a coach and horses through unless there are clear definitions of what constitues "safe" and "responsible person".  "i.e is CE compliant and section 7 says " is this wording part of the document, or are they your words?

Edited By Phil Whitley on 07/04/2019 18:23:30

Edited By V8Eng on 07/04/2019 18:20:21

Edited By V8Eng on 07/04/2019 18:23:24

Oh dear, and I was agreeing with what Phil said up to this point!

Problem is that there is nothing in EU legislation to stop the UK intervening to stop non-compliant products entering the country. Rather the EU enables such action to be taken both nationally and across all member states.

The reason non-compliant products are sneaking in is because the authorities choose not to enforce existing legislation. Leaving the EU won't fix Phil's problem with piss-poor quality imports from the Far East. Leaving might even make the problem worse because it removes any obligation on EU members to control goods or people en-route to the UK.

Dave

As usual in such regulations these definitions are in the "Interpretation" part of the Statutory Instrument. I already provided the exact link on page 1 of this thread but here it is again:

**LINK**

“responsible person” means, in relation to machinery or partly completed machinery—

(a) the manufacturer of that machinery or partly completed machinery; or
(b) the manufacturer’s authorised representative;

“safe” means, in relation to machinery, that when it is properly installed and maintained, and used for the purposes for which it is intended, or under conditions which can reasonably be foreseen, it does not—
(a) endanger the health of, or result in death or injury to, any person; or
(b) where appropriate—
(i) endanger the health of, or result in death or injury to, domestic animals; or
(ii) endanger property;

V8Eng, what makes you think they aren't already here watching us?

Anyway, I imagine the statistics for injuries would plonk model engineering into DIY injuries:

**LINK**

There's a big long list of things to be banned before they find us😂

Wow that's an eye-opener. 1500 people a year injured putting up wallpaper? I'll be keeping away from that stuff then.

Meanwhile out in the real world, I think all the guys in this video are well in front of model engineers in the potential hazard queue. I don't think there is much to worry about fiddling with toy steam engines by comparison. Quite breath taking through to absolutely diabolical once it gets going. There outta be a law...

Edited By Hopper on 08/04/2019 08:27:27

Edited By Hopper on 08/04/2019 08:30:30

Hopper, excellent video, got me wondering if I can adapt my slotting head for wood splitting!

Of course we are being watched, the difference is between being watched and deliberately drawing the watchers attention to yourself.

We are watched on CCTV in many areas of life and not much notice is taken of us but if you start doing something that attracts the watchers attention then they will take an interest in you instead of not taking much notice.

Edited By V8Eng on 08/04/2019 13:12:14

Edited By V8Eng on 08/04/2019 13:12:49