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Milling collet arbor jammed in milling machine
| Julian | 22/09/2009 22:56:53 |
| 8 forum posts | IT'S OUT !
After thinking about the 15 pieces of advice from 12 engineers
 I decided to go for the drift in the slot, for a second time, but with a drift with a very slow taper. So I made one - using the very battered milling machine to mill the sloping side. It's 5 inches long. I rounded the top with a file, to match the round top of the slot, and I greased it. Then I worried about the sideways impact to the quill, so I turned the whole head through 90 degrees and supported the quill underneath with a length of 4 by 4 softwood, put my home made drift in and started tapping it in. It took a fairly hefty bit of clouting, but there was a lot of the drift sticking out of the bottom so I was confident I could hit it back out if necessary, and so I kept on - and bingo, out popped the chuck. To say I was chuffed is an understatement!Finally I went back to the milling job which I was doing when it all went belly up, to see if the machine still worked decently - and it does. Well, insofar as I get an acceptable finish. But there is a sort of yyyynnnnggggyyynnngggg noise under load, so I guess that means that a bearing or two is a tad the worse for wear after the sledge hammering it received. Looking at the exploded view diagram, there appear to be 5 ball races supporting the spindle, so watch out for a new thread shortly, concerning advice on replacing bearings........
So, once again, very many thanks to all of you for helping me out of a hole. I've picked up a lot of useful knowledge along the way, and will never use a sledge hammer on my machinery again - not even a lump hammer!
Best wishes.
Julian
PS should I send off to Warco for a set of bearings, or extract and check them all and just change the noisy ones? |
| chris stephens | 22/09/2009 23:12:51 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Julian,
May I be the first to congratulate you on your successful dentistry, erh, extraction.
The difference between an expert and an amateur is knowing just how hard to hit things with a club hammer to get the right results without bu**ering things up even more.
Again well done
chris stephens |
| chris stephens | 23/09/2009 02:14:17 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi again,
Forgot about your PS about bearings.
With all due respect to Warco, I would buy bearing from a bearing factor. I suspect it is not in Warco's interest to stock the very best quality bearings, but "generic" ones. Going to a bearing supplier you can often choose the quality and therefore the price, and good bearings can be pricey. Chinese bearings as, usually, fitted as standard are not noted for there quality.
 . There is a bearing supplier who regularly advertizes in ME, who might be able to help without confusing things too much.
If I have done Warco a disservice I apologize, I have had nothing but good service from them.
chris stephens
|
| Peter Tucker | 23/09/2009 08:47:54 |
| 185 forum posts | Good on you Julian, best of luck for the future.
Peter. |
| John Littler 1 | 23/09/2009 09:39:24 |
| 6 forum posts | Good one, happy milling |
| Circlip | 23/09/2009 11:18:27 |
| 1723 forum posts | Next problem Julian, a small word about hammering the old bearings out - - - - - - -
Regards Ian. |
| Julian | 07/10/2009 21:01:55 |
| 8 forum posts | Just to let all of you helpful engineers know the latest position:
Using the mill after getting the jammed collet holder out, I "discovered" - as many of you suggested - that I don't have to screw up the draw bar very tight at all, and that it does indeed tap out very easily with a tapered drift if you haven't over-tightened it! Which just shows that you can't learn everything by reading books and magazines. You have to do things, and make mistakes.
Anyway, the rumbling, vibrating and oval holes which the damaged mill produced quickly became unacceptable, so now the mill is stripped right down, the four ballraces are out - it was the big one at the top which supoports the quill in the casting which was shot to pieces by my sledge hammer. I've bought the four new ball races, circa 40 quid for top-of-the-range non-chinese ones, and hope to reassemble the whole thing tomorrow afternoon - if I can remember what went where, and which way up!
I'll let you all know how that goes, if you're still interested!
Once again, thanks for all of the technical and moral support when it was all bad.
Best wishes.
Julian |
| mgj | 07/10/2009 22:47:53 |
| 1017 forum posts 14 photos | Well, if you do get any spare bits, just be sure to tip them in - they'll find their own level  somewhere.Missed this one - so belatedly good for you. Now you do know your way around the machine, you'll be a lot less frightened of it - thats for sure. Oh and Chris, your nearest supplier of good bearings/belts/ power transmissions helicoils, oil seals etc, if you need him is on the Houndstone Trading Estate. (with apologies to Grannies if necessary) They are very good and will get bearings ground to non standard sizes etc. Premier Power Products. |
| chris stephens | 08/10/2009 12:58:28 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Meyrick,
Re Houndstone Trading Estate, wish that they were the nearest, but I am in NW London!
Thanks for the thought though.
chris stephens |
| mgj | 08/10/2009 17:57:16 |
| 1017 forum posts 14 photos | Ah - well that's because you are not the right Christopher, for which I apologise. I agree, it could be a little bit of hike to the Houndstone Trading Estate from the Smoke, especially as i think you have such places up there. Chris H though might find it useful. Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 08/10/2009 18:01:53 |
| ChrisH | 08/10/2009 21:57:08 |
| 1023 forum posts 30 photos | Hi
Have read this thread with interest having been in similar situations in the past, and am now - have a push-in bearing sitting around a stub shaft on a wind generator which should pull out easily and is stuck solid as a rock with no easy way to to mount a puller without damaging something. Ho humm, it will come in the end, just not sorted yet. Have enjoyed the interchange of dialogue though, most amusing to an onlooker. Never ever take life and comments in this sort of context from others seriously is my thought for the day
Now, I am the Chris(H) to which you refer Meyrick, as I live not a million miles from Yeovil and have used Premier Power Products on the Houndstone Trading Estate quite recently, admittedly for bearings on a trailer resident in France, quite mundane, was very impressed by their service and the knowledge not from the usual typecast more, in fact very, mature male who had been in the business since time began but by a young pretty blond from the office, of all places, who knew exactly what I was talking about from the off, and where to find them in the stores. I will definitely be using them again and would recommend them to anyone in the area though I agree, from the Smoke it would be a bit of a hike, especially on a day like yesterday (wall to wall heavy rain).
Chris |
| Peter Tucker | 09/10/2009 09:39:03 |
| 185 forum posts | ChrisH, I had a problem bearing to extract recently ( no room for puller). My solution was a short off cut of galve water pipe, on one end I welded a thin annulus of steel to hook over the bearing near the other end I drilled holes for the puller. The pipe was slit lengthwise in three and steel strap tabs welded to each piece lapping over the neighbour which was drilled and taped to be screwed together. After some grinding of the weld to fit, each piece of pipe was hooked over the bearing, fixed to its neighbour with a screw through the tab, the puller hooked in the holes, and of came the bearing.
If you think this may work but can not follow my ramblings I can try and post a sketch.
Peter. |
| KWIL | 09/10/2009 15:59:28 |
| 3681 forum posts 70 photos | Have you spoked to WARCO? They would be able to suggest a positive answer I am sure. |
| ChrisH | 14/10/2009 14:38:40 |
| 1023 forum posts 30 photos | Hi Peter,
Not picked up your reply until now, so sorry for the delay in response. Yes I do understand what you are describing but I am afraid it is not that easy.
The wind generator sits on a pole with a bearing at the tp which allows the generator to turn and face the wind. The top bearing sits at the top of a boss cast into the generator housing and on a short stub shaft . At the bottom of the boss is the bottom bearing which in reality is a tuffnull or something similar plain bearing - more of a bush really. This bearing has a completely flat plain surface, is a tight-ish fit on the stub shaft, and is sealed by a rubber O ring sitting in a groove in the bush on the OD and on the ID by a easily removable seal on the shaft. On the inside of the bearing a circlip sits in the stub shaft to stop the bush sliding up. To remove the stub shaft and lower bearing all you are supposed to do is give the shaft a good tug and out it all pops! This it is refusing to do, the problem is the O ring is seizing up somehow, one can shift the whole lot up a bit but it then jams. Haven't had time to give it a very good dose of looking at as I am tied up elsewhere but it's on the list and will come in the end. I may have to fabricate a special puller to attach to the stub shaft and push off against the bearing boss.
Regards, Chris |
| Bob | 14/10/2009 17:50:31 |
| 51 forum posts 1 photos | Posted by Peter Tucker on 22/09/2009 04:54:33:
<snip> All MT mills will have a slot for a drift; however my meagre experience is that the drift dose not shift a tight taper.
<snip>
Oh what a thing it is to generalise...
The Victoria Universal Mill's vertical head is No. 3 Morse and most definitely has no slot for the ejector drift
I would be concerned about any miller with such a quill that would allow a normal drift to be used to eject the taper as I would doubt its rigidity. Fine for drilling machines but not for mills.
I also do not think that big collets chucks should be mounted on Morse tapers, there is not enough metal at the point where the chuck joins the taper. I have seen a Clarkson (reputable manufacturer) 1 1/4" autolock mounted on a No. 3 taper bend at the point where the chuck joins the taper after a nasty snarl up.
Finally, I would avoid using Morse taper tooling on Milling machines for the reason that it might be impossible to remove from the taper if it is flogged up too tight. That's why mills use 40 International tapers which are much steeper and in my experience do not jamb in the taper. Also the drive is not taken on the taper, but by separate lugs.
Bob |
| Julian | 14/10/2009 19:40:50 |
| 8 forum posts | When I bought the mill, I chose the 3 Morse Taper option because my trusty Boxford lathe has a 3 MT head, and so the collet chuck etc I had been using to mill with a vertical slide on the lathe could be used with the new mill. I had no idea that Morse tapers were a bit of a no no for milling.
The bearing replacement malarkey isn't going very well I'm afraid - don't ask! I think I may end up with a new mill yet.
J |
| Peter Tucker | 14/10/2009 21:18:50 |
| 185 forum posts | Julian, don't give up on repairing your mill, even if you never use that mill again you will gain in experience and satisfaction from completing it. As for MTs in a mill many people are producing good work with this system, you chose your mill for interchangeability of tooling, this is a good engineering principle. Peter. |
| chris stephens | 14/10/2009 22:17:50 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Julian,
It's me again.
Re Morse tapers on mills, best not to pay too much heed to others prejudices, sure Morse is weaker than R8 or INT tapers, but you are only going to be using your mill for hobby purposes, aren't you. Buying tooling that can be used on two machines makes excellent sense.
Once you have got your mill back in one piece and use it a bit, you will soon develop a "feel" for what works and what doesn't. If your Morse equipment only allows you to remove ounces per hour instead of pounds, so what? Time playing with your new toys away from family and other distractions is time well spent.
chris stephens |
| mgj | 14/10/2009 23:34:45 |
| 1017 forum posts 14 photos | Chris - we can't keep doing this. I agree. Bob is absolutely right. The "proper" milling tapers are better in general and much better when it comes to transmitting a lot of power. But realistically at the hobby level its not going to make much difference - and you have have to be pretty vandalistic to walk into a chuck of metal so violently that you bend a 3MT autolock. However there is a consolation- if you bend the Autolock, you problably havent bent the mill. Also for the modeller, there is a lot of good tooling quite reasonably priced, compared with R8/30INT - which is sometimes harder to come by and often more expensive So while I accept Bobs argument, were I buying another mill, I'm afraid I would not allow that view to influence my choice of taper. |
| chris stephens | 15/10/2009 00:28:22 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Meyrick,
Just checking you got the right chris., before we get censored again.
 Too often people think they have to have the right tool before they do anything, they should learn to be more adaptable. I personally love to have the right tool and have collected them all my life, but as any one who knows me will tell you, lateral thinking is my "thing". The brain is the most important tool is any work shop, and can make up for many other tooling deficiencies.
I seem to be making it my mission in life to try to persuade people to think for themselves, you can't show newbies everything but if you can teach them to think and keep an open mind , well its a first step.
Sometimes you have to be provocative or contentious to stimulate a debate and see what floats to the surface.
chris stephens |
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