Evading VAT and Import Duty

Thank you Ketan, for your reply.

I will do a search

As was pointed out elsewhere it is all too easy to come unstuck unwittingly regarding importing/tax despite trying to do the right thing. I thought the customs people were supposed to have turned over a new leaf?

Regards Anna

Anna,

I have been working with the customs people be they HMRC, DTI, Import quota, IPR, import consultants, import clearing agents, building up my knowledge, as well as on some occasions educating various authorities, agents, consultants on correct implementation, since 1986. HMRC have always been 'GOOD', and I still continue to educate myself now a days, every day.

Fortunately and unfortunately, it is not HMRCs job to teach you the correct way to import/appoint an agent, etc..

Back in the day, I took a courses over three years in International Trade, which included International Law, forwarding and International documentation. As part of the courses, we took exams, which we had to pass to move to the next stage. At the end, if all went to plan, one became a graduate member of the 'Institute of Export'. This process shouldn't be taken lightly. Over the years, I specialist in dealing with Customs, and in finding LEGAL loop holes.

With the advent of Amazon, eBay, Alibaba, everyone is a self appointed importer and exporter. As a result, YES there will be pitfalls, and YES, they will be costly, but by how much is open to you.

On a business scale, it has always been the importers, consultants and agents, who have been looking for loop holes, be they good or bad. To solely blame the HMRC would be wrong.

Ketan at ARC.

Dave,

I recently bought an electric chair for my mother in law actually a lifting bath seat.

The supplier was Lloyds the Chemist and to get the exemption I just had to fill in an online form as part of the checkout process it was a simple as declaringe the medical reason for the exemption.

The process for buildings is equally simple, there is no 'official form' - the builder just needs a declaration from you, but this page which explains it includes a link to a document that explains the declaration required.

Your builder should have been able to sort this, not you as customer. HMRC should have been able to tell you this.

Neil

My experiences with HRMC have all been surprisingly positive, much better than expected. All recent though, so perhaps they've improved. I wonder if you enquired at about the time HM Customs and Excise and the Inland Revenue were merged? It was one of those cost cutting wheezes that cause chaos by ignoring awkward practicalities like the time it takes to retrain staff.

Another possibility is that the wires got crossed when you asked questions rather than your supplier. Isn't it the responsibility of the Builder in these cases to do the VAT paperwork, not the customer? I can imagine the conversation suddenly getting complicated if amateurs rather than a VAT Registered Builder do the work and then try to reclaim tax already paid by a supplier who didn't know when he did the admin that the work was VAT-exempt.

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 10/12/2017 15:19:42

I'm sure the seller is equally convinced he sold them in his country for exactly the same reasons.

What matters to HMRC is where the goods were when purchased.

Neil

Hello Ketan

Sorry cannot agree regarding customs always being good.

If I remember correctly, quite a few years ago now, they were amalgamated into the tax office because of their appalling overbearing attitude to small business.

Kind regards Anna

Who says the transaction takes place "There". If i did not pay for it they would not sell it. They are offering it to me ( in GDP)hence, that generates the sale. I did not ask them to make the product. They produced it & put it out on the world market & offered to bring it to the UK for me to chose. I am not responsible for the act of importation. They are. Once they get inside the UK they are within the VAT system. They should pay it, not me & the collection fee made by the Royal mail for collecting tax should be addressed to them . Not me

Keep Dreaming Sam.

deleted not relevant

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 10/12/2017 15:48:50

Yes Anna,

I am aware, and that was the politicians decision to save cost, and nothing to do with HMRCs overbearing attitude to small business. I have worked with, discussed, debated, argued with all sort of HMRC officers - in all different areas of taxation bases in various parts of this country, working on behalf of large as well as small business, and I can tell you that most of the time, they have been co-operative and extremely helpful.... provided you can get through to them.... and subject to the limitations laid down by the politicians. If you have a valid issue, and if you are right, they will always help you, if they can.

At the same time, as they have also pointed out to me: 'Ignorance of the law' is not an excuse.

The new amalgamated system 'over the phone' is a little less educated, with better results coming from the Gov.UK site. Before these cost saving measures were implemented by the government, one actually spoke with and argued with a real EO and SEO to solve problems....quicker.

If we could only cherry pick the best of the two worlds, it would be great, but this is progress..

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 10/12/2017 15:58:52

Hi, Ketan.

Thanks for your reply. You are clearly very well versed in the tax systems etc.so it is much easier for you to find your way round the system, unfortunately, not so for most normal mortals. Hence my original question.

I stand by the reason that I said customs was amalgamated into the tax office.

Kind regards

Anna

Hi Anna,

I totally understand and respect your point of view.

Ketan at ARC.

Its never been cheaper to import small items of tooling direct from China than at the present time. Quite often the part arrives in a week or two from an address in Germany! Not sure how that works but I’ve saved a lot of money over the past few years. I’ve also read of Americans saving large amounts by importing machines direct from China.

The three official reasons were: Efficiency Savings, Customer Focus and Greater Accountability. I think we all know what 'Efficiency Savings' are but the meaning of 'Customer Focus' is less obvious. 'Greater Accountability' isn't likely to be understood by anyone! (Give yourself a brownie point if you know it's something to do with separating Policy from the Executive. Go to the bottom of the class if you thought someone might get sacked if they were rude to you. )

If the intent behind 'Customer Focus' was to stop Customs and Excise bashing Small Businesses, Anna's experience suggests the reform has failed. Actually, it's probably on track - I think 'Customer Focus' was really about creating a single tax authority with full visibility of all a Business's tax affairs, rather than offering anyone sympathy!

Trouble with all these reforms is the difference between what politicians say, what politicians mean, what politicians vote through, and what happens to their ideas in the real world. I'm not complaining too loudly because our tax system is bureaucratic. Bureaucracy gets a bad press but it's really a good thing. It's a system that obeys the written rule-of-law. Think of the alternatives. We're lucky not to live in a country where taxes are collected at gun-point by teenage thugs wearing Ray-Ban Sunglasses and cheap camouflage. It's very unwise to argue with Tax Demand AK47!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 10/12/2017 18:52:28

Indeed Vic,

Perhaps you should see the Panorama program to which I gave a link to earlier, if you wish to understand a little about how all of this is possible. Then perhaps you and others can list all the Chinese companies from whom you have purchased such products from, what you have paid and what you have saved. It would be very educational for all concerned. As a small business, working legally in the U.K., we would be happy to share the details with HMRC with view of ascertaining if there is any case to answer for lets say tax evasion, money laundering of dirty money, etc.

HMRC wants companies like us to provide information, and we are happy to report ALL possible information which could help them recover revenue.

You see, it is fine for all of us to save money at the expense of legal businesses going under.

It is also fine for Amazon and eBay to get away with such activity as shown on Panorama.

I guess in five years time, it will be fine to see all the adverts you see on the right disappear too.

Oh, it will then also be fine for many to go on the dole, claim benefits, bitch and gas on about the state of economy, while the politicians continue to accommodate the corporates, and the masses become slaves to them!

Well, think about it?

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 10/12/2017 19:23:41

Hi All many thanks for your replies.

Ketan thanks for your reply it is comforting to know that there is someone such as yourself who has the depth of knowledge necessary to keep us all informed and on track.

Neil, our situation with the village hall wasn't as simple as making a declaration as in a simple purchase, it was further complicated as our supplier(the builder) wasn't VAT registered and in our case happened as Dave(aka SOD) indicated it occurred when the system was in a state of flux with the major reorganisation taking place. It could have well been that the person I encountered on the phone was having a bad day, we all get them, so he wanted to make sure he didn't suffer alone. I appreciate Ketan's reference to the complaints procedure that exists, I must admit I can be quite tenacious if the situation warrants a complaint and I know that I am in the right. I remember one of my annual appraisals when I was an NCO in the Air Force read "does not tolerate fools gladly".

Dave W

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Dave,

I regret to say that [if I understand correctly], the fact that your supplier was not VAT registered is the crux of the problem.

Please read this page **LINK** and the next; and see if you agree.

https://www.gov.uk/vat-builders/disabled-people

MichaelG.

Hello Dave,

I was in business for 15 years many years ago, ( prior to the amalgamation of customs and the inland revenue.) When I first registered for VAT and the VAT man first called to see what I was doing you would have thought I had committed a crime, rather than I was a source of revenue. I will never forget that. I remember reading about the customs/ inland revenue amalgamation after a long campaign by small businesses regarding customs officers behaviour, and thinking at last things may get better.

Things are a lot better now but there is still room for improvement it seems.

Anna

Ketan

On one hand you say you will look for legal loop holes to avoid paying taxes, what you really mean is if someone pays you enough you will find a way for them to evade paying taxes.

The ordinary guy falls into your 'I will report them'

The proof in the pudding is with enough money companies like Amazon or Google can put two fingers up to the system, 'legally' but it's morally wrong.

Making money, anyway, wins hands down all the time.

Hi Anna, so I wasnt alone in thinking that the establishment needed educating!!!

Dave W