Cheap 3 in 1 tig welder - any one used one?

Re the shielding gas - have a look on the mig welding forum for information about the Volkszone BOC offer:

**LINK**

I'm going to phone and ask but the headline price for an X sized cylinder argon refill is £51 plus vat. I did find a price list eventually and noted that they even charge £15 for collection. Perhaps they serve up a good 3 course meal plus drinks while people are waiting. Then their is the bottle rental on top of that.

Fact - if they have the cheek to charge for collection I wont buy anything off them on principle. It must mostly be to make up the profit they loose from delivery

I'd thought that a Y size might be a better option. Refill a bit over £80 plus the collection charge and the unknown rental that I can't find anywhere on their web site. Compared with £96 for a refill and an £80 deposit on the bottle. I could go smaller on that source and take back and simply pay the difference on the bottle deposit but the gas in those is a lot more expensive - diy trap.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 18/12/2016 14:41:54

Yes I've tried a couple and for my money I would rather buy a real product from a known brand.

They both leaked gas from the solenoid valve. were hard to set current and feed in mig mode, which is what I use most. these machines were Mig, Tig and stick, no option for plasma cutting.

I finally bought a cigweld 175i, very happy with it, easy setup, no leaking valves quality accessories. And excellent instruction book.

Happy welding.

Bob

I've been sorting bits out for it so haven't powered it up yet. I did intend to get some sparks out of all modes today without gas or air just to see if it works. Several things prevented me.

The only let down on what is supplied is the TIG torch. It might work ok but no spares in the uk. That might not be a problem. I have no idea how long collets and the metal bits last. The cutting torch is just like many others. I've seen and used stick holders that are a lot worse. It will hold them firmly.

In terms of how it's built it doesn't look to be cheap and nasty. Some oddities. It looks like the valve has a 1/8 bsp fitting. This makes it a bit of a problem to use anything other than the hose tail they have fitted - it's serrated just like other types of tail are so can be used really. The regulator is 1/4 bsp so no problem using more sensible fittings on that. All they supply is 1/4 bsp hose tails. That from what I can see is the only cheap and nasty aspect. The general construction and boards inside etc looks to be pretty good.

If it works and the valve leaks I don't really see that as a problem - just fit one that does. If the made up lead leaks it will probably benefit from ptf tape.

A standard tig torch as mentioned wont cost much and if I want an ergonomic handle on it complete with a button to push I am sure I could make one for it.

Leaks if there are any wont take long to fix. All I am really concerned about is the important aspect - the sparks and reliability. Actually the pipe inside that take the gasses from front to back looks just like it should do if some one is manufacturing a lot of units.

I have let the seller know that I haven't tried it yet and why. Also asked about torch spares. He seems to have missed the fact that it doesn't come with any tungsten rods but apart from that it does come with what is needed other than the add on for say cutting which needs a fairly capable compressor.

John

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John - I'm not sure where you got those prices from. The Volkszone BOC offer is for the Y sized cylinders and the current price seems to be £51, which includes VAT (as I mentioned on the first page on this thread). Refill seems to be £36 and you only pay delivery if you get it....delivered. Pick it up yourself and you save that charge. There are BOC agents all over the place so won't be a long drive for you. As I said, I think this is the best deal going, even when you look at the cost of the "rent free" arrangements after a couple of years. If you think you can do better, please let us know.

Murray

Murray, BOC charge you the same if they deliver your cylinder, or you go out of your way to collect it. That's one of the reasons I replaced my Argoshield cylinder with one from a different supplier. As a Y cylinder lasts me about 3 years, I was in profit in less than a year. I will do the same with my argon, acetylene and oxygen cylinders when they are empty. BOC are setup to deal with commercial customers, and aren't interested in hobby use. They're hardly generous with their depots in Kent either.

Edited By Nicholas Wheeler 1 on 19/12/2016 18:59:09

I think that is what it all boils down to - the amount you use.

Rental gas is a bit cheaper per refill so if you use a lot you will recover the cost of rental. If you use it once in a blue moon then rentfree is a better buy and the smaller bottles are not such an issue if you only use a small amount. Even if you have a large job just get a second bottle for that job and then return it and get your deposit back.

J

Off BOC's official price list for 2016 Murray. I'm also not clear if the deal mentioned applies to cylinders with just argon in them. That's what I want. I will phone them and ask about prices. There are 2 pretty large BOC depots close to me so collection isn't a problem. If they charge for that I probably wont deal with them even if it costs me more.

In some respects my best hope but I need to visit is a local hire shop. I would be very surprised if they hadn't sorted something out and the owner has been very helpful in the past especially when I want to buy rather than rent.

I'm just about to put a plug on it. The !##???///!! microwave has bust though so may have to spend some time sorting a new one out.

John

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Just bought a new microwave combi. Same model as before.

I found a price list. BOC May 2016. This is for pureshield argon in an X bottle, vat to be added

Gas £51.30, Energy surcharde £0.79, Monthly Rental £7.05, Yearly £77.90, 3 yearly 214.75 and 5 yearly £336.80

For a Y bottle

Gas £67.85, Energy surcharge £0.79, Monthly Rental £8.90, Yearly £99.40, 3 yearly £274.05 and 5 yearly £429.95

I suspect that the Y bottle wins out on price but can't remember the gas volumes off hand. They state a surcharge for delivery or collection but don't give a figure on this one.

Rental from the site I linked to. One off refundable at any time for the bottle £80 plus vat. Gas also £80 plus vat. That's for 4m^3 of gas.

Didn't realise it was this late, aught to be in bed. The film finished late so no time to calc the cost differences with time. I'd guess for decent sized bottle - 4m^3 and low use rental wins.

John

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I just fitted a plug had some sparks out of it.

The plug proved interesting. They had fitted a nice neat shrink wrap type thing where the outer cable had been stripped off. I removed it as it makes wiring a UK plug as I do difficult also to check if the cables had been nicked during stripping. It hadn't. The leads they had left were way to long so trimmed them up cutting the live so that this will always pull out first if tugged too hard. I also didn't twist the copper to get it into the plug prongs - bad idea as they loosen after a time and need retightening. They don't if the copper isn't twisted up.

As there has been an "electric" thread thought I should mention that. Same goes when using wires in any screw type connection.

Anyway - bad news after a fashion. No idea what country does this but the earth cable was a lot lighter than live and neutral. Might be 1.5mm^2. I think I will change the mains lead. The live and neutral are probably 2.5mm maybe more. I suspect this explains the comment about adding another earth lead.

I just tried stick briefly. 30 amps and 1/16 electrode on a bit of 6mm mild steel. It strikes fairly easily, problems me as I haven't used one for a long time. It stuck on twice but the torch holds well enough to pull them off. I then managed 2 short wavy beads. Need to be steadier but kneeling on the floor didn't help. Really that thickness of plate would need a lot more current and a larger diameter rod but small rods can be used if they are run along slowly making sure that the parent metal is really melting. It probably reaches the lower needs of 4mm rods using ordinary electrodes.

One thing for sure striking the arc is a lot easier than my hobby level transformer one. Lots of people bought the same model as it stated a striking voltage and it was higher than many. Not sure if it matches an industrial transformer unit though.

One thing I don't like. The auto welding helmet I bought. While the see through bit looks large in the photo it isn't in practice. A bit too slot like for my tastes but usable.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 20/12/2016 13:20:34

Err, that would be the UK that does that John

Ok, that isn't quite fair but it is true of fixed wiring - your ring final circuit is probably wired in 2.5mm2 L/N and 1.5mm E, assuming it is fairly modern. Some older circuits are closer to 3mm2 L/N and closer to 1mm2 earth in practice. I know, I am sad but have a vernier in my tool box when I am doing electrical work

The earth does not need to be as large as the L/N as it only takes fault currents for short duration, rather than full load continuously. So it is the let through energy that is important, not the continuous rating.

Unfortunately, for "mobile" wiring it is not possible to guarantee the fixed circuit it will plug into so it is safe to make the earth the same size as the line and neutral. However, if you know you are plugging it into a known circuit (like the aforementioned ring final circuit) then you might consider it overkill to change a cable to higher rating than the circuit it will be plugged in to

Of course I would not be saying you should not change the cable, Just that I would not lose any sleep over it if I was in your shoes.

Interesting Toby. I rewired two houses many years ago and did some work in factories and never noticed that.

It did strike me that the earth wire is more than man enough to blow a 13amp fuse. That probably would prevent me from taking it apart.

Anyway it's an interesting piece of kit and so far looks promising. No guarantees given or implied.

Next thing is do I try tig for sparks without any gas? The power feed looks to be the same as stick but that is via some sort of inductor that may well be air cored and may have some sort of feedback. I didn't look that closely but it could be a form of current transformer.

John

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John, I don't really think you're getting it. If you don't mention and ask for the Volkszone deal, you will indeed pay the professional prices. They aren't on the published price list and only apply to hobby users. You need to fill out a form that presumably allows you to declare that you are a hobby user. There are 2 gases - pure argon and argon-CO2 mix (the former for TIG, the latter for MIG, technically MAG in fact).

Rather than downloading price lists and fuming at the wrong prices, check out the prices several of us have posted in the thread above. You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.....

Murray

I will phone them Murray. I've too much on at the moment and don't expect to sort gasses out until past Xmas. Sorting odd bits and pieces has already taken me away from the kitchen work too often really.

I may have found a compressor for cutting. They claim 105 l/min at 4 bar. Stand on end type by Einhell. The motor rating sounds rather hobby but that's what I am. A rather high output for an oilless of this style.

John

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As mentioned - if on this scheme they charge for collect I doubt if I will have any dealings with them on principle but that's me. I wont be buying a bottle a week by any means. I will probably do what I did with propane. Choose a size that is well above my needs so that there is very likely to be some there if I need it. Also a size that I can move around easily.

The propane bottle is some what over 3ft tall. It doesn't get refilled very often. I was tempted to go for the next size up but have found that I don't need it. Argon will be much the same. My main reason for buying the welder is a dog cage - one dog cage. I have a wide range of tooling of all sorts for similar reasons. I would have to pay some one else to do the work without them. In this case that charge would not cover the welder cost but will pay for more than 1/2 of it. After that it's there to use. There is also a fun aspect. Good value for money really.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 20/12/2016 17:14:18

Hope my last post didn't sound to terse Murray. Suppose I often do. This horse drinks from where it likes to. I just examine the options, Anyway.

I just tried tig with no gas. Not good for the ceramics on the end. Glowing red hot and I haven't look to see what has happened to the electrode and collet.

It was interesting. The unit makes a higher pitch buzz until the arc starts making that aspect easy. As the "manual" mentions it stops as soon as the arc starts. Think it deserves a better torch that takes standard parts. There is no collet holder as such which probably interferes with heat transfer and other things.

I burnt away the end of the ceramic and the electrode.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 21/12/2016 11:04:25

You CANNOT TIG weld WITHOUT a shielding gas. This gas will usually be either PURE ARGON, ARGON/HELIUM mix, or PURE HELIUIM and just for the record (before you ask and ignore the answers), the ARGON/CABON DIOXIDE mixes, used for MIG, WILL NOT WORK.

As you appear to be ignoring all the advice, information and pointers given to you, good luck.

Edited By Nick Hughes on 21/12/2016 11:59:45

Should add that I put 50amps through a 1/16 electrode. Suspect that is way too much ?

Also I probably have a stick welder user problem. I usually use the rod at an angle. As I burnt away one side of the ceramic I'd guess tig needs using square on.

Cutting will have to wait. I wont try that without something to hold the torch the correct distance from the work. Also a compressor will be needed. I've decided to trust the Einhell spec. Worrying as experience suggests that I shouldn't do that with German products. Some air fittings will be needed as well. The arrangement it comes with isn't too good really. It would work but be somewhat inconvenient if things need to be unplugged. The Einhell comes with a euro bayonet but it's easy to make an adapter to convert to pcl. I can buy odd pcl bits from down the road but they don't sell much in the line of fittings with tail ends. The ones that come with the unit are 1/4" bsp.

The prices for bent bits of wire to hold the cutting torch off seem to be excessive.

John

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I'm tempted to say get knotted. Do you really think that I don't know that tig needs a shielding gas? Did you notice that I did it without because I wanted to make sure sparks came out of it in tig mode and that gas wont be available for a while? Did you notice how many time I mentioned pure argon. I also want a decent regulator and flow meter before I even try using argon.That still hasn't arrived.

Like I said I will phone BOC when I am ready. Advice on the machine itself is pretty pointless really as I had decided to buy it and try it. Actually the machine is looking pretty promising. Given leak problems some have mentioned on cheap chinese units the answer is simple - fix or send back. No sparks would also cause me to send it back so I have checked that sparks do come out of it.

In short if you want to be rude get your facts right.

John

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An oil-free compressor may not be your best bet - they can only be operated on a very intermittent basis or they die quickly. Duty cycle for the Einhell vertical from their manual :

S3 25%: Intermittent mode, no start-up, no braking
(cycle duration 10 minutes). In intermittent
mode, the percentage load factor (25%) is always
quoted so that the heat generated during this period
can be dissipated during breaks in operation
by convective cooling. Intermittent mode consists
of the on time and the cooling breaks, known as
the duty cycle.
The period of consideration is 10 minutes. 25%
load factor means that the electric tool can be
operated for 2.5 minutes at the rated performance,
followed by a cooling phase of 7.5 minutes

An inexpensive oil type would be more reliable for periods of operation exceeding a few minutes. Oil free types are great if you want to blow up a tyre occasionally, but little else. Noisey too, but the same goes for the oil type single cylinder direct drive types.

Nigel B