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mgj31/12/2011 16:25:14
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Thank you Jason - tis exactly what I need - and shall make.
 
Tery - yes I can see the advantages of the chisel for smaller/copper rivets, but as indicated, I was thinking more on the lines of 3/16 and 1/4 rivets for TE wheels.
 
Rivet squeezers are excellent tools too, and making one would be good because the commercial ones are expensive. However there comes a point where size, as they say, starts to matter. The 5" loco boys are at one level in the riveting stakes, and possibly in the same or similar pool as the 3" TE gents, but even there I was dealing with a lot of 1/8 iron rivets on the strakes. Once you go up to the 4" engines, then, even for a smaller engine, it becomes a more serious problem.
 
I have seen a thing like a rivet squeezer which did an excellent job for dummy rivets. I suppose you'd call it a dimpler, but the fake heads looked very convincing.
Stub Mandrel31/12/2011 22:45:57
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Side cutters are gettinga bad press for cutting rivets, but if you take an economy pair and grind the bottom face flat then you should be able to cut rivets straight across with them.
 
You can buy cutter like this for cutting electrical wires close to a surface, I have a pair but they haven't got the cojons for rivets.
 
Neil
Terryd01/01/2012 04:25:33
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Hi mgj,
 
A good sharp 8" cold chisel will easily cut a soft iron 3/16 rivet cleanly and quickly with one blow from a16 oz hammer. Have never tried a 1/4 " but I wouldn't expect much of a problem and done properly it gives a clean distortion free cut.. Even 14 year olds could manage it with a bit of practice. It is more about technique than strength.
 
But hey, why try a simple, inexpensive and elegant solution when we can devise a nice complicated machine(preferably German and expensive ) to do the job, much more satisfying, we are engineers after all.
 
Happy new year to all,
 
Terry

Edited By Terryd on 01/01/2012 04:25:51

Springbok01/01/2012 05:48:53
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879 forum posts
34 photos
I bought a rivet trimmer from Arrand some years ago saves a fantastic amount of time also crops bolts etc, It goes in the vice put your rivit in the correct hole turn vice handle and bingo one trimmed rivet. Will post a pic of it as they do not have a web site, they are a very old fashioned company and still make tools to the spec that we all were used to years ago.
 
Happy and prosperous new year to all
 
Bob.
mgj01/01/2012 09:52:40
1017 forum posts
14 photos
Well fair enough. I'l try the chisel.
 
Then the press. I'm going for one of Machine Marts economy ones. Clarke is the supplier I think.
 
The economy one looks a bit primitivebecause it uses a bottle jack for the urge, but it has the advantage that the frame bolts together. So if you need to get something really large dia in there, you can. Where you may not be able to with the smarter presses that use a purpose built ram
 
 
Springbok01/01/2012 11:37:16
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Edited By David Clark 1 on 02/01/2012 20:10:05

Springbok01/01/2012 11:48:31
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Above is a lovely little rivet shortener from Arrand bought it in 06 and has done sterling work since MGJ do not understand why you would want to use a chisel or bottle jack
this device is aimed at ME's who wish to shorten quantites of rivets, bolts ,bar efficiantly
quickly and accurately.
 
Arrand 01664 454566
They have no web site.
 
Everyone have a good new year
 
Bob
JasonB01/01/2012 17:41:26
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Handy little tool, should not be too hard to make something up from Gauge plate.
 
mgj's bottle jack was for forming the rivits not cutting them, though I think he should consider getting one of the following instead, not the novel use of the inspection pit
 

J
mgj01/01/2012 19:08:15
1017 forum posts
14 photos

Pretty handy for strakes - doubt they would ever work loose.
 
JasonB01/01/2012 19:34:12
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Thought you may have gone for something different on the 4" one like the wood block wheels, I was chatting to a guy at Sandown who is going for that option on his 6", not sure what the 9" he's also doing is going to be fitted with. For the rims he has cut down an RSJ or UB to give him two Tees with a nice internal fillet and then had them rolled as half circles by Angle Ring and then welded them into a circle.
 
J
Terryd01/01/2012 23:02:46
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
Posted by mgj on 01/01/2012 09:52:40:
Well fair enough. I'l try the chisel..........
 
 
Just make sure it is really sharp, in fact sharp enough to cut paper when used like a Stanley Knife. It then needs little effort or force and the chisel will cut soft iron like butter.
 
Hi Bob,
 
why do you make so little of traditional tried and successful techniques? Do you really like to complicate things so much? I'm sure that dear old Fred (god bless his soul) used the simplest (and quickest) methods to get the job done.
 
Happy new year all,
 
T
Springbok02/01/2012 02:19:49
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879 forum posts
34 photos
T
I do not make so little of traditional techniques as you state and still use them but
this is not complicated and is efficient for small rivets up to 1/4" . Also who is dear old Fred.
In this day and age there are many ways of doing the same task and getting a good result , you have to look out of the box. In my 70s and still looking.
Or is it Luddites rule.
 As you are a member of mensa you should know that one of the questions was to connect a lot of lines up without crossing them and the answer was to go out of the box doing lateral thinking.
Bob

Edited By Springbok on 02/01/2012 02:35:52

Stub Mandrel02/01/2012 19:40:30
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4318 forum posts
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So that's how Ogri puts the studs in his leather jacket...
 
Neil
Nicholas Farr02/01/2012 21:02:12
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3988 forum posts
1799 photos
Hi Bob, I guess Terry means Fred Dibnah, the famous Bolton steeplejack as seen on TV.
 
Regards Nick.
mgj02/01/2012 22:05:23
1017 forum posts
14 photos
No Jason,I'm going for rubber tyres from your lad Alan at MJ. Woodblock would look lovely, but I think on tarmac they would get to seem pretty untidy in moderately short order. I could well be wrong. Also remebering the fun at school sliding around on those old parquet floors, I wonder how much grip wood block would provide on grass?
 
I had my tees rolled up ready to weld, all 4 for £160, but thought they were undercharging so I gave then a couple of hundred. Considering what some charge I felt that was pretty reasonable. (Paid handsomely because the perch braket cost £10 including material, and I'll only pay a tenner for geting a few other bits bent up.)
 
A weekend will see them as "wheel blanks" . I'll get a Clarke cheapie press, and make a dolly guide up from 1" x 3" steel section, (as on TT) and I think I shall use Edwards conical squishing system. If it takes a bit longer to produce a decent job, then fine - I have the 3" and shortly Metre Maid to keep the fires burning. That 3" has been a real winner - took a bit of sorting through my inexperience, but its a super engine now.
 
I shall have an experiment with chisels, and if I can't make that work quickly and easily then I shall use your rivet grip and the bandsaw. That Arrand gadget looks very good, but they will charge, and I already have a bandsaw, so the bandsaw idea wins in my workop. If I had't got a bandsaw or a power hack, then the Arrand would be very attractive.
 
Thank you all - I have learned a lot.
Springbok03/01/2012 01:16:41
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879 forum posts
34 photos
I bought the Arrand because at the time I had over 300 rivets to chop down.for a particular loco.
 I should imagine if it is only a few the good old saw wins.
Bob

Edited By Springbok on 03/01/2012 01:18:28

Geoff Rogers03/01/2012 19:32:21
30 forum posts
4 photos
Jason,
thanks for the photo of the hydraulic riveter - I am looking at knocking up a smaller version for the two 4" Burrells I am making
 
Geoff
JasonB03/01/2012 20:33:38
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Another option being used on a 6" Fowler crane engien here or the good old gun method here and a flypress
 
mgj if you have a look at Julia's GMT build on TT there is quite a bit about using a press and making dollies there

Edited By JasonB on 03/01/2012 21:02:35

mgj03/01/2012 22:42:58
1017 forum posts
14 photos
Jason - thanks. I had seen that, and thats why I was going for this very massive dolly guide.
 
What I'd like to be able to do is rivet the spokes to the ringsand then weld the rings in. That would simplify things (back wheels), because the guide won't need to bridge the second ring, so one would probalby get a better squeeze. I think I'd make a pattern to compare the bent item against as well, just so as to be able to make the odd scientific adjustment.
 
(After looking at your link - he uses a bridge dolly with 3/16 rivets, and that has worked very well and i think his dolly is less massive than I was planning, so there is another option)
 
Edward in his book has a good idea for a spoke bender which could easily be made to have stops on it, so it would actually bend pretty accurately. Have a trial run/assembly and then a happy afternoon TIGging in the rings!
 
We have diverted a bit from rivet heads, but its all part of the process - of TE wheel riveting. Maybe not loco sized rivets.

Edited By mgj on 03/01/2012 22:43:12

Edited By mgj on 03/01/2012 22:48:07

JasonB04/01/2012 07:59:31
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25215 forum posts
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That would certainly give easier accesas you would be able to come at it from the outside of the ring but you would still need a cranked dolly to miss the second tee if using the press method.
 
It would lend itself more to the rivit squeezer method, I'll dig out a pic of a nice little squeezer made from a hydralic ram and a few bits of plate.
 
J
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