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Axminster Power Tools milling vices on offer

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Andrew Johnston22/12/2011 23:36:36
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What's a lockdown vice?
 
Andrew
alan frost23/12/2011 00:19:09
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Where do them shaper vices go ?? I've had two 10Ms, neither with a vice. BBC machine tools at Carluke had,a few years back a lot of 10M vices but they wanted more than I paid for my shapers. I called in about six months ago as someone wanted a 10M vice but they had got rid of their big" hanger" of m/c tools (probably gone to China) and no 10M s.
 
By that time I had read Adrian Nicolsons article on shaper vices (homeworkshop forum) and knew that although Elliotts usually had good vices this was n't true for the 10M vice. Adrian has a few shapers and is pretty knowledgeable (including two big Elliotts with the proper and good vices they fitted to their 14 inch shapers, and a 10M )
 
Rick's vice seems pretty good and he's achieving some amazingly good finishes on a modified Gingery shaper (and he's still chasing better-the chain drive is currently under very close scrutiny ) but due to the size limitations of the Gingery I did n't like his mounting method and he's had to put up with milled finishes on the vice elements. I've suggested he runs the non-critical surfaces over a linisher.
 
I did get a very good design of rack vice with my FW mill (vice manufacturer unknown ) and I must have a look at the arc Eurotrade one you mention.
alan frost23/12/2011 00:22:52
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A lock down vice as I understand it is a vice that does n't like headaches. To avoid them as you tighten it ,the vice applies a fair bit of the clamping force downwards so that you don't have to mallet the workpiece downwards with a gentleman's persuader. I think its an American term. Along with the Ozzies they are good at descriptive names.
 
Oh the edit vanished -I was going to say who could ever forget "budgie smugglers" or closer to our interests a "come along " (one of them horizontal lever hoists we all " illegally" use vertically for pulling engines out of cars-until we get our first engine crane)

Edited By alan frost on 23/12/2011 00:38:09

Edited By alan frost on 23/12/2011 00:41:16

Andrew Johnston23/12/2011 09:34:32
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Alan: Thanks for the explanation; turns I knew the principle, just didn't know what it was called!
 
As far as I'm aware my Kurt vice acts as a 'lockdown' vice. I did measure the movable jaw lift a while back; I can't remember the exact figure, but it was on the order of a few tenths. That's why I bought it; I was fed up with the 'no brand' secondhand vice that came with my secondhand vertical mill. It had a jaw lift of about 20 thou.
 
I wouldn't ever use the Kurt vice on my shaper. I already have what I think is a proper shaper vice, made by Abwood. It didn't come with the shaper, bought later off Ebay, about £20 as I remember. It's a big b*gger with 8" wide jaws, too heavy for me to lift, so now it's on the shaper that's where it stays!
 
Regards,
 
Andrew
alan frost23/12/2011 18:23:24
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The Kurt is supposed to be a lock down design and they have a good reputation as far as I know. A jaw lift of a few tenths is I would have thought pretty good.
You did very well if you got a proper shaper vice for £20, finding them is next to impossible and an Abwood one for £20 with 8 inch wide jaws is a real bargain, 8 inch wide jaws is a big B*gger. What size shaper have you got ? Only thing I am surprised at is that a Kurt has vee form thread. There must be a good reason for it as I would n't have thought they would have skimped on the thread without good reason. Maybe a vee form locks better than a square or Acme thread ?
I would n't purport to be an expert on vices but I assume my rack vice locks down well (I've never measured the jaw lift ) by the very nature of its design. I'm also always puzzled by the trouble designers seem to have in making a very low profile vice, that locks down. On the face of it ,it would seem a pretty straight forward piece of design to design a screw vice with zero jaw lift and a low profile. There must be more to it than is apparent to me. For instance why are vices almost always of a pusher design ? It seems more logical to me to have a clamp screw that pulls the moving jaw on to the fixed jaw, and that design certainly suits shaper usage.
Harold Hall 123/12/2011 21:31:22
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If anyone is interested in the drilling to milling vice modification mentioned by Alan earlier. This was covered in much more detail in issue 23 of MEW than was included in the book he mentions.

Harold

alan frost24/12/2011 10:33:40
137 forum posts
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Read it with great interest ,Harold-excellent as always, although I would n't claim I could do this lot in a couple of hours.(read it on the archive on this site of course).
 
I agree with you about the excellent proportions of most drill press vices. Why,oh, why can the makers of milling vices not achieve as good a basic design. If they then substituted a clamp screw that pulled the moving jaw onto the fixed jaw (operated from the fixed jaw end ) , incorporated a "lock down" action that worked , and added a base big enough to have longish slots at right angles to the jaw movement (easiest flexible mouting to the infinite variety of tee-slotted tables ) THEN we would have a vice worth the exorbitant prices charged for top quality machine vices.
Of course they would have to get a bit of iron and steel back from our Chinese friends, nothing like a bit of mass to keep a workpiece happy and stopping it getting restless.
 
EDit-Oh, and incorporate a handle like the Axminster one-Long enough for good leverage, with a swivel for tightening when space is at a premium,a ball end for speed , and chromed or painted in "find-it" fluorescent yellow.
 
Rgds.

Edited By alan frost on 24/12/2011 10:44:46

_Paul_24/12/2011 12:04:12
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For those of you like me that have one of these awful things and have not been as fortunate as Alan in the quality stakes I found a site showing a reasonably comprehensive rebuild of one of these crappy import vices at DOCSMACHINE if you lose your way on his site the thread is subtitled "Polishing a Turd" which for me just about sums it up
 
Regards & Seasons Best
 
Paul
Tony Pratt 124/12/2011 12:35:36
2319 forum posts
13 photos
Hi, I at various times have been tempted by the Vertex vices at roughly £120-£150 which are a copy of the ultra expensive "Kurt" vices with the hold down facility. Can I expect a better product from Vertex or is a Turd by any other name still a Turd? Personal experiences preferred.
Tony
_Paul_26/12/2011 22:11:36
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Tony,
 
I have a K4 Vertex vice which is fantastic quality accurately machined and zero defects, it does lif when tightning it's inherent in it's design however one swift tap with a deadblow normally seats all parts, its currently sat on my Elliott 10M.
 
I have now gone for a Screwless type of vice as it has no lift at all when clamping work the downside is it's not quite as easy to use as a "conventional" vice.
 
As a comment on Vertex apparatus in general I also have one of their BS0 dividing heads which is excellent both in quality & accurate operation.
 
Regards
 
Paul
Andrew Johnston28/12/2011 12:14:41
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Posted by alan frost on 23/12/2011 18:23:24:

You did very well if you got a proper shaper vice for £20, finding them is next to impossible and an Abwood one for £20 with 8 inch wide jaws is a real bargain, 8 inch wide jaws is a big B*gger. What size shaper have you got ? Only thing I am surprised at is that a Kurt has vee form thread. There must be a good reason for it as I would n't have thought they would have skimped on the thread without good reason.
 
 
My shaper is an Invicta 4M, ie, 18". While I don't know that the vice is a shaper vice, it looks exactly like the vices illustrated in the manual I have for the shaper. That's good enough for me.
 
I assume that Kurt use V form threads because they are cheaper, and do the job. The thread form is ground, which I suspect might be easier for a V form thread. As far as I'm aware the thread doesn't drive the movable jaw directly, but through a hemispherical ball that angles the applied force partly downwards, to prevent the jaw from lifting.
 
Best Regards,
 
Andrew
 
David Haynes29/12/2011 10:36:34
168 forum posts
26 photos
This discussion gave some useful tips, but for me, the question is, what first vice would one choose for a 6" wide table. Plenty to choose from and whilst going for a 100mm wide may not be necessary and narrower are available, I have a list here on which short comments (eg good/bad/average) would be appreciated:-
 
 
I see various folks are agrieved by poor products and a simple comment on these (and any similars) may save me and other purchasers from making the same mistakes.
Thanks
Dave
 
Billy Mills29/12/2011 11:26:52
377 forum posts
David, Well intentioned but one man's precision vice is another man's doorstop/turd. One issue here is that some far away makers knock out products without checking them. So sometimes you get a usable vice sometimes not.
 
I have just purchased a tiltable vice which has jaws that don't meet. You can see why, a hole was drilled at an angle. So it will get plugged and re-drilled. Very much agree with the point that you cannot expect silk purses for sow's ear prices. Perhaps the cure is for suppliers to quickly check products that are troublesome BEFORE sending them to the buyer. At least there's a chance that the seller would avoid the cost and bad publicity of a returned vice or twenty.
 
Billy.
David Clark 129/12/2011 11:40:33
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3357 forum posts
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Hi There
I would recommend the Arc Euro Trade precision Toolmakers vice.
They are excellent value for money.
No experience of the others.
regards David
 
David Haynes29/12/2011 12:55:01
168 forum posts
26 photos
Hello folks
 
David,
Was that the 100mm precision Toolmakers vice from ArcEuro and what size of table do you have?
 
Also, Billy which tiltable vice did you get?
 
Thanks
David

Edited By David Haynes on 29/12/2011 12:58:30

mgnbuk29/12/2011 12:56:59
1394 forum posts
103 photos
what first vice would one choose for a 6" wide table.

I chose a 4" Vertex K4 for my FB2 clone, which has a 6" wide table. It is in reasonable proportion to the machine & is well made. My only gripe (which prompted this thread) is the rather limited opening. If you wish, I could take a photo of it on the machine.

The Axminster VA 4" on sale is a much bigger & heavier (21 kilogrammes) vice all round. Unfortunately, the sale item that was delivered to me before Xmas was of nowhere near the quality of finish of the Vertex product. I am not in the market for another project, so it went back. I did not check the accuracy before it was returned.
 
I have no experience of the Axminster "K4" on sale, but it doesn't look like my Vertex K4
( http://www.vertex-tw.com.tw/products/products_list.php?language=_eng&cid=25 ). It does, however, look distressingly like a very poorly made Chinese manufactured 4" vice we bought at work on "sale" (£20ish + Vat - and overpriced at that !) from Cromwell tools. If we machined more than graphite, it would be all but unusable ! As it is, it gets very little use as it is so unpleasant to use.

Chronos appear to have had a run on 4" vices - when I looked after returning the Axminster vice, they appeared to have sold out of the 4" versions of most models.
 
Regards,
 
Nigel b.
Stub Mandrel29/12/2011 13:13:21
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4318 forum posts
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1 articles
It was an Arc radial vice I managed to overtighten and break the fixed jaw off. They did strongly suggest I would be better off with the 4" although I can't think of a job I've done where bigger would have been better.
 
Assuming I had a slightly dodgy casting everything else about it was fine, including a long length of adjustable gibs. You do need to make a 5mm allen key with a reduced short leg to adjust them (I alread had one for the front carriage gibs on tne mini lathe).
 
The grip is excellent (too excellent, as I found). A quick handle rather than the small knob would make coarse adjustment less of a bother.
 
Neil
David Clark 129/12/2011 15:58:13
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3357 forum posts
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10 articles
Hi David
Yes, the 100mm.
Not sure of table size.
Tom Senior light verticla.
Probably could get info from lathes.co.uk
About the size of a chester 626 I think.
regards David
 
 
JasonB29/12/2011 19:27:36
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I have had the Chronos K4 on my X3 which has a 160mm deep table for about 5yrs now which seems to be a good size for that machine.
 
I don't use it on the swivel base unless needed which gives a bit more capacity under the spindle.
 
J
David Haynes08/04/2012 22:45:34
168 forum posts
26 photos

Hi folks,

I'm picking this thread up again as my X3 is due to be delivered by Axminster soon, some months after ordering on 12th night (Epiphany, 6th January)! I new it would be a long wait, but I wasn't expecting it until the end of April so this is a pleasant surprise!

Martin W had some good words to say about the 2 Soba milling vices. Which were they?

Similarly for Paul with his screwless vice from Arc Euro, how successful has it been, I suppose it's the one that DavidC has found successful?

Any other current milling vice thoughts are welcome.

Thanks

Dave

Edited By David Haynes on 08/04/2012 22:47:49

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