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Bending HSS

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Stub Mandrel21/09/2010 21:36:24
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I don't know where I got the air-blast idea from. perhaps I dreamt it?
 
I thought it might be in Radford's Improvements and Accessories for your Lathe*, the only work I have that mentions making your own tools from annealed HSS. He says heat to red heat, then quickly to blistering yellow with the oxy-acetylene (is this the same as 'sweating'?) and plunge into oil (and run away?)
 
Neil
 
*Funny how some people say similar books for 'mini lathes' prove they are no good, yet Radford was writing about Myfords...
Andrew Johnston21/09/2010 22:05:41
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Neil, I don't know where you got the idea for air blast cooling from either! But the following is a quote from "Machinery's Handbook", so whatever else, you were not dreaming:
 
"Many high-speed steel tools are quenched in air, either in a stream of dry compressed air or in still air. Small sections harden satisfactorily in still air, but heavier sections should be subjected to air under pressure."
 
Regards,
 
Andrew
ady21/09/2010 22:57:12
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--I don't know where I got the air-blast idea from. perhaps I dreamt it?--
 
Probbly read some historical blast furnace stuff at some point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace
Peter G. Shaw26/02/2011 17:41:11
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Hi folks,
 
Just a follow-up on what I did.
 
Cut off a 25mm length of HSS from a 125mm x 10mm x 10mm length from Amadeal. Cut a length of mild steel bar, bent it and shaped it to form a ledge. Ground it and the HSS to fit and silver soldered together. Ok, it took a couple of attempts, in part due to running out of gas, but it eventually worked.
 
Ground up the HSS to make a tool. Some very ugly pictures on page 2 of "Tip Build Up".
 
Cleaned it up this afternoon, and tried again on some other steel. Again I think it must have been either a hard, or hardened steel. Anyway, the steel was eventually ruined by tearing when using other tools, but the HSS was worn circular. Set about cleaning it up again, and thought about trying to file it. Yes, I have managed to soften the HSS whilst brazing. So that was a waste of time.
 
I tried the file on the remaining part of the HSS bar and sure enough that is still hard. Which suggests that this particular HSS is not suitable for brazing onto mild steel shanks and then using to cut steel. I suppose it may be suitable for aluminium and other softer metals. Interestingly, it did seem to try to work on the tube I was trying to turn (see "Tip Build Up" thread).
 
Oh well, back to the drawing board.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
chris stephens26/02/2011 19:17:38
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Hi Peter,
It may not have worked out but at least you tried. There is nothing worse that to think of an idea and then do nothing about it.
No disrespect to Hugh at Amadeal, but buy name brand HSS from a "western" manufacturer, it will almost certainly be of a superior quality, even if more expensive. At times like these the old saying "the quality is remembered long after the price is forgot" is worth remembering.
chriStephens
Peter G. Shaw26/02/2011 20:02:51
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Hi Chris,
 
Everything you say is true in all respects, but it could just have worked so worth a try.
 
Anyway, all it's cost me is 25mm of HSS. I still have 100mm left to use as is.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
 

Nicholas Farr26/02/2011 21:46:03
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Hi Peter, one thing I remember the master blacksmith I was trained by when I first started work was; "anything is worth trying a least once"
 
I always guessed he ment within reason, and it seems to me that your trial was reasonable.
 
Regards Nick.
Chris Trice27/02/2011 01:18:39
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We never have a failure. We have learning experiences.
ady27/02/2011 02:30:37
612 forum posts
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If your lathe is stiff enough then carbide cant be beat.
 
You don't make carbide too sharp.
The amount of productivity carbide can do compared to HSS is incredible.
Get a silicon carbide wheel.
You give it relief, on all sides, and you give it support under the cutting edge.
 
A hook shape also helps if you only want to do general bespoke cuts.
It can also help if, perversely, you don't make the tool too stiff, the "bang-bang" of an intermittent cut can be greatly reduced if you just tie the tool down with moderate force for example.
 
The other thing which has bothered me recently is the quality of HSS tooling I have got from fleabay.
 
A tool I got as a part of a deal has been amazingly resilient...so I cut my ebay HSS tooling along the same lines and they were CRAP.
 
It looks to me now that not all HSS tools are created equal.
I will have to investigate further because guys like sparey created ahuge amount of outputs from HSS and never complained about the lack of productivity.
Tony Pratt 127/02/2011 10:57:58
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13 photos
Why am I not suprised about Ebay HSS being crap! We all know our eastern friends can make good stuff but I suggest this is another case of making to a price not making quality.
Tony
chris stephens27/02/2011 13:07:42
1049 forum posts
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HSS is rather like Beer, just because it is brown and foamy it does not mean it tastes good, and then there is that p*ss-water called Lager. Best to buy a known quality brand and rely on their name.
chriStephens
 
Peter G. Shaw27/02/2011 14:02:58
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re We never have a failure. We have learning experiences.
 
Sorry Chris, I do not believe in that sort of PC language, although I understand what you are saying. I much prefer the older saying: "It is better to have tried and failed, than to have never tried." And the other one: The man who never tries, never achieves anything". Much the same I suppose.
 
And anyway, don't forget the senior body: The Society of Model and Experimental Engineers, not that I would call myself an engineer, but I do like the experimental bit.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
chris stephens27/02/2011 15:10:51
1049 forum posts
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Hi Peter,
You will find a membership application form on our website.
http://www.sm-ee.co.uk/ and you will be most welcome to join us.
Feel free to PP my name as proposer.
chriStephens
PS Although the "best" do seem to gravitate to us, we do welcome all levels of ability from rank beginner to Gold medal winners. Hell, they let me in!
PPS Another old saying; "The man who says he couldn't possibly do something is probably right" There is nothing like failing before you even start, is there?
 
Chris Trice27/02/2011 22:11:19
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Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 27/02/2011 14:02:58:
re We never have a failure. We have learning experiences.
 
Sorry Chris, I do not believe in that sort of PC language,
 
Actually, I wasn't being PC. I should have added a smiley to show I wasn't being overly serious although the sentiment is pefectly valid. I raise you one old saying. "We learn by doing." Failure can teach us how NOT to do it next time.
Peter G. Shaw28/02/2011 17:09:33
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Apologies Chris. It's just that ever since I got chewed up by an old biddy for describing some people as being mentally disabled, which is an accurate description of what they were, and then being told that the "PC" term was something else, I forget what, I object to PC language. I suppose I'm really being over-sensitive.

Now before I get jumped on, let me say that I have two definite disabilities - one is that I have a disease of the back which leads to restricted movement, and then other is that due to Menieres Disease, I now am almost completely deaf in one ear. So if anyone wants to dress it up as something else, then look out for a first class row - I have two disabilities and I don't care who knows. And by the same token, I do not dress up other peoples disabilities. That does not mean that I am not sympathetic, just that I call a spade a spade, not something else.
 
Agree with "learning by doing". I freely admit to passing certain examinations purely because I was working on that particular equipment at the time of the examinations.
 
Regards,

Peter G. Shaw
Nicholas Farr28/02/2011 20:56:05
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Hi Peter, my mother was deaf in one ear and had to use a hearing aid in the other as long as I can ever remember, she ended up becoming very hard of hearing in her last two years or so and suffered from mild tinnitus would you believe, but she almost made 82 years.

With my mothers hearing difficulties, I can understand any frustrations people with hearing problems have, as some people get very impatience communicating with any one who has hearing problems. I suppose my brothers and sisters and myself grew up with with her hearing difficulties, so we are more able to understand the problems hard or hearing people, do have.
 
I feel I have been lucky in some ways working for my old company for the best part of my life, as they took safety very seriously, in that all types of PPE was always provided. We had hearing tests and cheast X-rays every ten years or so and various other examinations by a nurse on a regular basis, all on site. Having said that, if you were seen not wearing your ear defenders or eye protection or any other PPE where it was required, you faced disapline. The PPE was not provided as an optional extra, and not having any particular type was no excuse.
 
In a more recent place where I've worked, I've found it amazing that others can't be bothered to use ear defenders or even eye protection when they have been useing an angle grinder or hammering. I personally can't stand the noise of the angle grinder running without it even grinding anything, let alone any sort of hammering or noisey machines.
 
Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 28/02/2011 20:56:42

Peter G. Shaw01/03/2011 11:00:28
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Hi Nick,
 
I too have tinnitus. I describe it as being mild because although it is permanently there, a mild "shhhh" sound all the time, I can ignore it. I can understand the frustration of people who do not have hearing problems, but it says more about them than it does the deaf person. My biggest problem is that as a choir singer, I have to ensure that I am on the correct side of my section in order to ensure that I can hear the other section members. Otherwise it can feel as if I am singing solo.
 
I think one of the problems is that until we actually experience something like deafness or blindness, we tend to think it will not happen to us. Another problem is that years ago, there was not this emphasis on personal safety even though all the safety aids were available.
 
For example. I can remember 50 years ago standing in front of a large diesel generator watching it start up and thinking what a lovely sound. And working in the middle of racks of registers (any ex-exchange technicians will know what I mean). Both places being very noisy when working flat out. No ear protection at all. Also, checking very large lead-acid batteries which due to the charging and discharging produced a smelly atmosphere. Not sure what it was, but I do not think it would be particularly healthy. But again, no eyeglasses and no breathing protection.
 
Today, having effectively lost one ear, I do wear ear protectors when running the milling machine, but the grinder, being a 150 W motor is not that loud, even when grinding. Generally, the other engineering tools do not seem particularly loud so I do not use the ear protectors. On reflection, the mains drill (400W), and the two angle grinders (9" & 5") do seem loud, so perhaps I should consider using the ear protectors with them.
 
In terms of eye protection, I have always used eye protection when grinding, less so on the milling machine, seldom on the lathe and drilling machine, and never with the hand held drills. Perhaps I should reconsider, especially as I do have them, and my grandson automatically uses them when he visits. Maybe the grandson should teach this grandad to suck eggs. (Apologies to non-UK readers who may not understand that last sentance.)
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
Peter G. Shaw02/03/2011 09:45:27
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Hi Graham,
 
Thanks for the commiserations, although as I said, my tinnitus is tolerable, in fact the whole lot is tolerable, especially when as an ex-part-time taxi/minimus driver I have met people with real disabilities who put my problems in the shade. It is all a matter of perspective.
 
Anyway, thanks for the idea of using gauge plate. I have a lump, 6" x 2" x ¼" or thereabouts sat there doing nothing which I had forgotten about. I must be getting old - forgetting about things like that.
 
Reminds me of the old joke:
 
There are three ways of telling when you are getting old: the first is that you start forgetting things; the second is, er.......... Can't remember !!!!!!!!!
 
And with that I will go away.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
 
 

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