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Ian S C29/04/2010 02:08:25
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I think there is a good range of colours in the dylon fabric dye, it comes in little aluminium containers.Ian S C
Circlip29/04/2010 08:37:12
1723 forum posts
Try this one again, What about inkjet inks??
 
  Regards Ian.
Terryd29/04/2010 09:15:32
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
Hi Ian,
 
Inkjet inks are not very stable in light and colours fade relatively quickly on exposure to normal light levels, at least when used as intended.  I'm not sure about how they would react in anodising.  It might be worth trying  on test pieces though.
 
However I've just had a realisation though.  These inks are only available in three colours and black (Magenta, cyan and yellow)  All other colours are made by the mixing of these in the printer according to the instructions from the computer program.  It might be a bit difficult and expensive to try to mix colours externally.  
 
I've heard good reports of Dylon products used in anodising they are intended as fabric dyes and are made to be colour fast, as well as being cheap and available in a good range of colours.  I don't know where you are located Ramon but if these are not available locally I can get some to you.  Just email me, but I'm sure there must be a similar product where you are.
 
Circlip29/04/2010 11:17:14
1723 forum posts
There are two types of ink used in printers, one more colourfast than the other. As far as mixing, a few drops go a looooooooooooooooong way.
 
  Regards  Ian.
Terryd29/04/2010 12:13:26
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1946 forum posts
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Hi Ian,
 
I agree, I use both types of ink in my printers depending on the application,  especially the special inks produced by Epson which according to their tests will last up to 200 years if protected from light or 100 years in a normally lit environment.  How they have tested that though I'm not so sure. However these long life pigment based inks are significantly more expensive than the normal dye based inks (the ones which rapidly fade in light) I also know that a few drops of ink go a long way as I regularly refill cartridges and occasionally my nitrile gloves develop a leak. 
 
It is still very difficult to mix accurate colours.  Taking into account the relative intensity of dye or pigment, I would have thought it would take quite a lot of ink to experiment enough to obtain an accurate colour intense enough to colour the anodised components  The ink would need to be used neat , not diluted. 
 
On the other hand, fabric dyes are almost perfect for colouring anodised components. or so I am informed by those who use them and do a lot of this work at a hobby level.  They are available in a very wide range of hues and shades (more than actual anodising dyes) and are cheap, around £1.50 for a pack that will colour hundreds of square inches of anodised material. As well as being relatively permanent, very widely available, will keep for a long time when diluted and are very safe.  I don't see any problem with using them.
 
Let me know if you have success with any experiments you carry out with inks, it would be interesting to compare the results..
 
Regards
 
Terry
Ramon Wilson30/04/2010 08:10:48
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Hi,
Thanks as usual for your thoughts
 
Having spent a bit of time viewing what I can find on the subject it appears that green can be a bit difficult to take with some dyes. I have known about Dylon for some time and this was my first intention as it is so readilly available - thanks for your kind offer Terry but I can get it locally - however I have not been able so far to find the Dylon in the 'little round tins' but only a limited range of colours in sachets. There is a another Dylon type that is intended to be put into the washing machine but according to one source this was not successful. Another states the the small round tins marked COLD WATER DYE are not successful either but that the tins with just the colour and range number printed on are! I would have thought the dyes are the same just different labelling as they are all 'cold water dyes'. It does appear though that some colours simply wont 'take'. 
I could not get green locally so settled for intense violet! (Yea I know, I know!) but have decided not to use it (for the Racers).  The reason I would like to get a good green is that I have the head of a DC Rapier to do too.
 
So far I have found a couple of 'professional' dye suppliers one selling a small 20g sample for £6 and another selling the proper anodising dye 500ml for £14 plus several types on ebay. I shall try in town today but if no luck will probaly settle for the 'sample'.
 
I did consider your thoughts on the printer inks the first time Ian but Terry has summed my thoughts up - the mixing problems and the cost for such relatively small volumes.
 
I have investigated green ink - this evidently works well but unlike years ago when you could purchase inks in largish bottles they are seemingly only available in 30ml or so bottles.
 
Whatever the search goes on - the engine parts near completion so I need to be ready to get on with this asap - Thanks again
 
Regards - Ramon
ZigFire30/04/2010 10:52:50
32 forum posts
Hello Ramon,
 
Please download the pdf at this link. It includes all the necessary info for dying your aluminium.
This retailer is in Australia, not sure where you are but postage to wherever would not be expensive. These dies are in powder form so no messy liquids for postage. I have used there products and they are very good.
 
 
http://kraftkolour.com.au/Instructions/p13_sectionid/1/p13_fileid/70
 
Cheers 
Michael
 

 

 

Circlip30/04/2010 11:07:30
1723 forum posts
Another to consider Ramon, are there any "Proffesional" Anodisers in your area that could "Donate" a sample of "The right stuff" to have a bash with?
 
  Regards  Ian. 
Terryd30/04/2010 11:33:53
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1946 forum posts
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Hi Ramon,
 
You may have seen this site but the (amateur) guy seems to have been quite successful at anodising at home using simple apparatus and equipment.  He also has advice about the kinds of dye which he has been successful with.  That is if you don't have a friendly anodiser nearby as Ian suggests.
 
The only difficulty may be the sulphuric acid, depending on where you live, but I get it in the supermarkets in France when I visit my  property there.  They sell it as battery acid , I forget the concentration at the moment  but the required strength is quite easy to calculate.
 
I can't wait to see your results.
 
Terry
 
 
Terryd30/04/2010 11:35:29
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1946 forum posts
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Oops Sorry Ramon,  
 
I forgot to include the url. It is here:-
 
 
Terry
Ramon Wilson30/04/2010 20:40:02
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1655 forum posts
617 photos
Hi again,
 
Had a good look today for dyes. It appears that Dylon have apparently discontinued the range of dyes in those small round tins. The only thing I could find is a new display stand that features 50gm sachets in a limited range of colours (This is what I had found in another store in my home town). They did have a green though and also an older 100gm box of another green so I bought both. It also occured to me as I was coming home that possibly I could make a strong dye using artist quality water colour paint. I assume that is just another form of pigment - very finely ground in a water soluble binder. Anyone any thoughts on that possiblity?
 
I also bought some washing soda crystals for degreasing but having checked the label noticed the first item - "Do not allow to come into contact with aluminium!!??" Any thoughts on that one too? Does this mean the actual crystals or is it to prevent the surface of domestic aluminium objects being affected when washing.
 
I have 'found' the bottle of sulphuric stored in a container under the bench. This is labeled diluted 4 to 1 - that was from neat acid probably with tapwater. I was given it so long ago and also have a 25 ltr drum filled with 'pickling' strength too but cannot remember what strength I made that - 10 to 1 springs to mind would that be about right? None of this has been used.
There is also a small amount of neat acid so I could start from scratch but with de-ionised water which I still need to get - probably tomorrow.
 
Thoughts from our 'chemist' brothers would be most appreciated at this stage.
 
Here is the intended set up so far.
 
 
 
One thing I'm not confident about is the contact between the part and the ally wire. At the moment the wire is bent back on itself o provide a 'spring' push fit in the hole. Question is once the process starts will that contact dimish? (Hence the two wires)
 
Ian I do have a 'professional' less than two miles away. Before I thought about having a go myself I did contact him but his minimum charge was £35 - one off or the maximum amount on a 'tree' - it didn't matter. Unfortunately I didn't get the feeling he was particularly 'interested'
but if I don't get any success with what I have so far I suppose it would be worth taking the bits along just to see if I 'caught him on a bad day'!
 
Thanks for all your input everyone - much appreciated as always - thanks for the links too  - it's amazing what's out there.
 
Regards for now - Ramon
Terryd30/04/2010 21:48:00
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
Hi Ramon,
 
Just my twopen'orth, Washing soda is slightly caustic, and will etch the surface of aluminium.  The more caustic Sodium Hydroxide (caustic soda) will dissolve aluminium quite quickly.  However this slight etching is just what you need before anodising.  Most advice is to use caustic soda for a short wash, but I reckon washing soda is a safer alternative, however when used (in solution) it can produce toxins if in contact with aluminium , so is not a good idea to use with domestic utensils such as cooking pots etc.  (At least that is what I have always been led to believe, I could be way off there!).
 
After the etching process you should 'desmut' the component using a nasty mixture of nitric and other acids, however it seems that a good scrub with detergent and then de-ionised water is just as effective at home - that seems much better a choice to me .
 
Your idea of using doubled up aluminium wire is the same as I tried when experimenting with the process some time ago and it appeared to be quite effective, I didn't notice any diminuition of the contact.
 
By the way caustic soda will also remove previous anodising whether natural or processed if you need to repeat the process.
 
These are mostly my own observations from a limited experiment with the process and from reading up on it.  I hope others will correct any blatant or serious error.  
 
By the way, you could always experiment with some scrap aluminium!
 
Best of luck,
 
Terry
Ramon Wilson30/04/2010 22:36:38
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1655 forum posts
617 photos
Hi Terry,
Thanks, that would seem to explain the concern in not allowing - shall we say for the 'non anodiser' - the soda to come into contact with ally.
 
I shall use washing soda then as a 'final' degreaser after using a solvent (acetone) first and it's pleasing to hear that you had no problem with the doubled up wire too - I feel a little more confident in the method. I have several test pieces of ally cut from the same stock as the parts were made from to experiment on before biting the bullet.
 
So far the expenditure has been reasonable. The two big glass jars were a quid each from Tescos, the poly box was three, and the dyes and soda seven. Just some de-ionised to shell out for tomorrow and it should be all systems go.
 
Regards - Ramon
Terryd30/04/2010 22:49:10
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
By the way Ramon,
 
One of my local independent shops has some old stock Dylon tinlets, I'll have a look see tomorrow.
 
Fingers crossed
 
Terry
Terryd30/04/2010 22:50:38
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
p.s.
 
Pity you're not local, I have about 50 litres of de-ionised H2O in my garage,
 
By the way, just out of interest, my aluminium wire came from the remains of an electric cattle fence from my property (an old farm) in Brittany
 
T
 

Edited By Terryd on 30/04/2010 22:51:02

Edited By Terryd on 30/04/2010 22:54:30

Terryd30/04/2010 22:59:27
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
Just another rambling thought,
 
of course you must take care with acids and alkalis, but beware especially the Hydrogen Dioxide, I believe that it causes more deaths than any other substance worldwide (de-ionised or not)! 
 
T

Edited By Terryd on 30/04/2010 23:00:14

Frank Dolman30/04/2010 23:06:34
106 forum posts

 
     The warning on the washing soda is to deter repeated cleaning of
   ali saucepans with it.  The effect on a saucepan is, of course, very
   attractive.  Never were pans so clean!  After half a dozen washes, they
   become pitted and a few washes later, holes appear.
 
 
     You are, we hope, only going to etch once.  Your workpieces will not
   be holed, furthermore you are going to wash them carefully afterwards.
   Imagine the effect on a saucepan put away in the cupboard with a bit of
   soda solution left in the bottom.
Ramon Wilson04/05/2010 12:35:07
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1655 forum posts
617 photos
Thanks Frank, understood.
 
I have just posted the first results under 'Anodising' as I thought it would be better there and leave the machining side here. Not that good so far I'm afraid but I will persevere. In the meantime it's back on the engine and get those rotors machined.
 
Regards for now - Ramon
LADmachining04/05/2010 13:20:10
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126 forum posts
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Posted by Terryd on 30/04/2010 22:59:27:
Just another rambling thought,
 
of course you must take care with acids and alkalis, but beware especially the Hydrogen Dioxide, I believe that it causes more deaths than any other substance worldwide (de-ionised or not)! 
 
T

Edited By Terryd on 30/04/2010 23:00:14

 Souldn't that be dihydrogen monoxide (2 H's, 1 O)?
 
Last time I looked in my local 'Hobbycraft' store, they sold the small aluminium tins of Dylon dye.
Terryd04/05/2010 21:28:51
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1946 forum posts
179 photos
Dear LAD Machining,
 
Of course you're correct, I hang my head in shame  ,

Dihydrogen Monoxide it is - but it's still dangerous

Terry

Edited By Terryd on 04/05/2010 21:29:08

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