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Northumberland locomotive additional dimension

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David Clark 111/08/2009 08:17:39
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Hi Kevin
Drawings will be in the next Model Engineer that I am working on.
That is 4359.
 
I have checked drawings that have been supplied by designer.
Model Engineer has introduced no errors into the drawings. They were checked against original drawings as supplied. No errors were found.
 
It is impossible for me to make everything published in the magazine and I have to rely on the designer to ensure everything is correct. I do pick up errors sometimes and the errors are rectified before publication but in a case lik this it is impossible for me to know there is an error in the drawings.
 
Model Engineer has done nothing wrong.
 
regards David
 
Pete W11/08/2009 10:00:26
5 forum posts
Oh but you have done something wrong and it may do you more good to take more responsibility for it instead of blaming others.
You have taken money from people for a service which was not up to scatch and caused inconvenience.
As I have already said in a previous post, with a history of 100 years of publication, we as consumers expect a given level of competence.
It's not for me with zero publishing experience to tell you how to do it, but wouldn't a simple disclaimer advising people to wait, and that corrections will appear in issue XXXX would avoid this kind of thing?
 
Pete
Circlip11/08/2009 12:12:05
1723 forum posts
Oh that all the ungratefull sods that witter could spend a week in a propper drawing office to see what happens in the REAL world instead of all being instant ex-spurts in the comfort of an armchair as "Hindsight Designers" Drawings that my lads had to manufacture parts to had been wrong for twenty YEARS from the D/O's of Full size loco's not damn TOYS.
 
  You've NEVER had it so good, life isn't perfect although to see some of the comments many seem to think THEY are. Your getting mods at the speed of electrons, it used to be a minimum of three or even four issues, I don't think Knitting patterns suffer from this, as competant knitters only take a few hours to prove/disprove a design. Having said that, haven't seen many cardigans pulling four or five adults behind it.
 
  Sorry for the rave Keith and David, you're STILL doing a great job, thanks from a GRATEFUL reader.
 
    Regards  Ian. 
David Clark 111/08/2009 12:33:17
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3357 forum posts
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Hi There
I am interested to know what Model engineer has done wrong?
 
We took a proven design, published the drawings (which I checked carefully to ensure they were correct to originals) only to find out via this forum that the drawing was wrong. I have no control over a designer making an alteration to a finished drawing before supplying it to us.
 
All drawings are being looked at together with the original builders notes and the original builder has agreed to look at our drawings to ensure any modifications have been incorporated correctly.
 
Perhaps the quickest way round this problem might be to hacksaw the frames in half and braze or weld a spacer in?
 
What do other forum members think?
Is this viable?
 
regards David
 
PS. Oh for a spell checker.
 

Edited By David Clark 1 on 11/08/2009 12:48:08

JasonB11/08/2009 14:09:25
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I think trying to stretch the existing frames will risk distortion or missalignment, maybe OK for someone with lots of experience but I would not suggest some of the beginners who are making the loco try it. If they have only done say a stuart before its likely they have never silver soldered and would not have brazing equipment.
 
Looking back through ME there have always been the odd errors that have slipped through, The big advantage of this forum is that they have been spotted and rectified in a far shorter space of time than the old letters apearing in postbag and waiting for the revisions to be included in a longer lead in time.
 
I know its upsetting for builders but this is a new design and some errors are likely, I know one of the posters in this thread has found a number of errors in the drawings of his current Traction Engine model and that design has been around far longer than Northumbrian.
 
I think you have sorted this situation out as quickly as you possibley could, (even posting at weekends when I'm sure you don't get paid for) and have put into action further steps to try and ensure it won't happen again.
 
Jason

Edited By JasonB on 11/08/2009 14:10:52

Robin King11/08/2009 16:01:43
137 forum posts
1 photos
I have to agree with Jason, any attempt to lengthen the shorter frames by brazing or welding in a section would cause no end of problems, better to start again and guarantee flat frames, and recycle any cut material for other parts. At least the doubts are now being put to rest.
 
As an ME reader/subscriber, and (rare) contributor for over fifty years the one thing I will say that we all tend to forget that the majority of designs published in ME are by amateur designers, not professionals, and even the pro's make mistakes; it's always been thus. Without the amateur contributions ME and the like would not exist. In my field in architecture dealing with even the simplest structures mistakes can and will happen because we are not fault free as human beings, we just have to learn to live with them and resolve them where necessary.
 
All credit to David  for being pretty quick off the mark in responding to the concerns raised and for having the commitment to set up and be involved in a site likes this - if past experiences of being a club chairman, committe member, and editor of the newsletter is anything to go by it's a pretty thankless task.
 
Robin
Robert Mullan11/08/2009 17:11:53
12 forum posts
Like Robin King I too am an architect and I have to say checking drawings is an enormously difficult task to do perfectly. I have learned also from bitter experience that some of the hardest errors to spot are often where a dimension has been changed but not the drawing and these can lead to very costly problems on site.
 
It seems to me that the mistakes we are talking about now were only noticed when builders began to mark out and cut metal - effectively they were redrawing the components again on steel. How the ME staff are expected to spot this kind of thing unless they do the same exercise is beyond me. To my way of thinking there was little that ME could do cost-effectively to avoid this kind of mistake. The designer on the other hand... he took a short cut and now others are literally paying the price. Even so we should be sympathetic: nobody's perfect.
 
In construction it's normal to chain dimension individual parts and also provide overall dimensions which give a straightforward double check. Of course we also work in metric, which makes the maths considerably easier! 
 
Rob M 
Pete W11/08/2009 23:28:36
5 forum posts
David,
Having gone back to the original article and re read the opening paragraphs, I apologise for my ealier comment. ME HAS done nothing wrong.
The author backs his effort with the names of two experienced (?) builders who supposedly checked the drawings. You have been let down as we all have.
I have been ignoring the preamble in favour of the technical details.
 
Regards
Pete
 
 
Pete W11/08/2009 23:35:58
5 forum posts
I love it when people start a post by listing their qualifications to do so.
Firstly you risk having your ego trampled.
Secondly, if you have nothing better to do than read beginner's threads, why not give us all the benefit of your vast and overwhelming experience and infinite wisdom earlier in the discussion?
The 9 year old and I would love to have known about the anomolies of working from ME articles a lot sooner.
David Clark 112/08/2009 09:27:38
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3357 forum posts
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Hi Pete
Thanks for that.
Paul Dewstowe built the prototype and passed any modifications to the designer.
One of his comments was that the pump stay was a bit close to the firebox front.
This is why the stay was moved forward 3/16inch.
 
Paul also mentioned the other error, the footplate centres but this correction seems to have been overlooked.
 
It did not help with both Paul and the designer being away last week when the errors came to light.
 
I am very unhappy with this as you can imagine but have made the decision to carry on. Many people are building the engine and I expect many have purchased castings at considerable expense.
 
I will check drawings very carefully.
I can do no more.
regards David
 
Circlip12/08/2009 11:11:10
1723 forum posts
Sadly PeteW your nine year old has had to learn one of lifes lessons that you stupidly omitted to teach him. Not everyone WINS. Life is like that, if you want an easier hobby try knitting, at least you can pull back and start again or make it into something else.
 
  One thing I would suggest, pull out the instant designer CAD package on your computer and have a go at "Designing" even a simple engine let alone something as complex as a loco. I'm sure you must realise though, the designer didn't single your offspring out to make him start again. You should be thankful that he (Yer Sprog) WANTS to be involved, far more would rather kill Aliens.
 
  Regards Ian.
Robert Mullan12/08/2009 11:58:52
12 forum posts
I assume Pete W's most recent post was aimed at my earlier one. He might be interested to know that I read beginners' threads because I am a beginner - it's stupid of me, I know, but I thought I was the kind of person they were there for....
 
I may know little about model engineering, but I have a lot of experience with design and drawing and so I felt the tone of this thread was rather unreasonably aimed at the wrong person. I think David Clark has done an excellent job of turning ME around and I think this website is a tremendous innovation for the hobby. David has also responded to some unnecessarily abrupt and chippy criticism with well-sustained moderation. I for one hope very much that he is not being ground down by some of the negative comments being posted.
 
Keep up the good work David! 
David Clark 112/08/2009 12:13:32
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3357 forum posts
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Hi There
I am of course unhappy but having done nothing wrong, am getting over it.
I understand readers frustration especially a 9 year old.
 
We looked at the drawings to see if we could accomodate the 3/16 but it was decided it would create more problems than it solved.
 
I don't blame the designer as errors do happen in the best of circumstances.
He altered the drawing with the best of intentions. I know from experience that a simple phone call makes you lose the thread that you were working on and introduces an error.
 
I have had drawings from experienced designers during my time in industry that were impossible to make. One particular one was a piece of 12mm wide strip drilled and tapped M12.
 
I pointed out that it might fall into two parts when machined and that a 10mm spigot might be better than a 12mm thread..
regards Davdi
 
 
 
 
David Clark 112/08/2009 15:53:32
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3357 forum posts
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Hi There
Corrected drawings are here.
You can right click and download when they will be readable.
Thay will also be in ME 4359.
regards David
 
Mike Tupper12/08/2009 16:25:01
8 forum posts
Hi David,
thank you for the eventual answer to my original posting.
Do you think it possible to ensure this latest significant posting and come to that the last few threads, could be entered on the Northumbrian threads as well? This ensures that anyone following postings to a particular thread and may  have email alerts set, can be made aware of this latest information.
 
Regards,
Mike
 
David Clark 112/08/2009 21:06:53
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3357 forum posts
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Hi There
Not sure which thread you mean?
The new drawings are posted in the Northumbrian thread.
regards David
 
Mike Tupper12/08/2009 21:55:45
8 forum posts
Hi David,
I mean the original thread relating to Northumbrian under Projects & Articles started by Chris 19/7 titled First project.
Not this one under ME Comments.
 
Regards,
Mike
JasonB13/08/2009 07:20:30
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25215 forum posts
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As I have said before I feel it would be best to put a thread at the beginning of the  Northumbrian Topic that is a " Sticky" This means it will always stay at the top and not risk getting rolled over onto a second page. It can be tilted "Errors & Omissions"
 
Also this thread should only be accessable to the Mods' so it does not get filled with discussions about errors/ommisions, these can be done as they have been upto now and once resolved added to the sticky.
 
David if you are not sure what I mean, PM me and I'll explain again.
 
Jason
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