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Digital calipers made in same factory?

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Ian Johnson 115/08/2019 12:02:10
381 forum posts
102 photos

I can assure myself that the 'Chinese Export' CE mark is 100% correct and legal on all my devices, and any old rubbish will still continue to be imported and legal no matter who is in power! The CE mark is a joke.

Former Member15/08/2019 12:17:56

[This posting has been removed]

Ian Johnson 115/08/2019 12:59:29
381 forum posts
102 photos

Oooooh!!! nearly got drawn into a political discussion there!!! Time for the 'Threadlocker photo! Ha ha

20190315_145522.jpg

SillyOldDuffer15/08/2019 14:24:02
10668 forum posts
2415 photos
Posted by Barrie Lever on 15/08/2019 12:17:56:

Ian

I agree the CE mark is an absolute joke.

I have heard of dodgy approval houses producing certificates that fool genuine retail customers into thinking that the item is approved and tested to the required standard, when in actual fact they have just rubber stamped the product and have no way of actually testing to the required standard.

Incorrect CE letter spacing is the least of the worries.

I am not sure if we will wash our hands of that failure on the 31st or not?

Barrie

Even accepting all Barrie's comments are all true, what's the alternative to the much abused CE system? The marks being international trade enablers, it's not a political question or a matter of personal opinion.

As dumping CE marks will restrict exports and open the door to unrestricted poor quality imports it will be necessary to replace the CE system with something else. What is the replacement, how much will it cost, who will pay for it and when will it be implemented & enforced? Once the details are sorted out, in what way will the new system be an improvement?

Dave

Former Member15/08/2019 15:21:20

[This posting has been removed]

Ian Johnson 115/08/2019 15:56:23
381 forum posts
102 photos

British Standards (BS kitemark) are a good replacement. They cover most products an industries. Respected all over the world and used by many countries. If a CE standard is not covered by BS then it can be easily transposed into British law or vice versa. European standards also include the technical EN range and most CE and EN standards are already incorporated into British law.

A good early example is BSEN3 for fire extinguishers, the BS was very good but didn't use the common red colour scheme like most of Europe. So the BS and EN were combined into a British and European standard. Now all European fire extinguishers are colour coded in red only, but the British extinguishers are allowed to colour code 5% of the extinguisher body in the old BS colour scheme: Blue (powder), Black (Co2). Cream (foam) and water is totally Red as per the old BS colour.

A lot of international standards are identical so it would be easy and cost effective to incorporate them into an individual country's needs.

Ian

Ian Johnson 115/08/2019 16:02:08
381 forum posts
102 photos
Posted by Barrie Lever on 15/08/2019 15:21:20:

Ian

I like the thread locker image.

Regards

Barrie

Glad you like the 'threadlocker' image Barrie I am going to unleash it when things get out of hand! devil

Michael Gilligan15/08/2019 16:19:03
avatar
23121 forum posts
1360 photos
Posted by Ian Johnson 1 on 15/08/2019 16:02:08:

Glad you like the 'threadlocker' image Barrie I am going to unleash it when things get out of hand! devil

.

Says a man with 97 posts to his name

... is this to be a coup d'état ?

Ian Johnson 115/08/2019 17:08:03
381 forum posts
102 photos
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 15/08/2019 16:19:03:
Posted by Ian Johnson 1 on 15/08/2019 16:02:08:

Glad you like the 'threadlocker' image Barrie I am going to unleash it when things get out of hand! devil

.

Says a man with 97 posts to his name

... is this to be a coup d'état ?

Soon to be a man with 100 posts to his name! And is that French for a 'Cup of tea'? Milk and two sugars please!

SillyOldDuffer15/08/2019 17:16:07
10668 forum posts
2415 photos
Posted by Barrie Lever on 15/08/2019 15:21:20:

Dave

My comments about faked CE markings are true and I would be prepared to discuss and share with you via PM if you desire.

As for a marking system that has more chance of working, how about the UL enhanced system? where each item has a unique identifier, this ID could then be checked back to a UL database to stop some dishonest person or company copying an identifier in addition to copying the product.

For whatever reason, there is no will to sort out the CE marking system, my hunch is that whilst the bureaucrat's know the system does not work but they don't want to admit defeat.

Where there is a will there is a way.

Ian

I like the thread locker image.

Regards

Barrie

Of course CE marks are forged but so are UL marks! And UL marks won't allow British goods to be sold into the European Market, or anywhere else that recognises the CE system. Replacing a shaky European system with an equally shaky USA system isn't the solution.

British Standards aren't a substitute for CE either. CE means the European manufacturer or European importer asserts all relevant standards are met for this class of product. That's all; it's not a guarantee or a quality system. Not comparing like-with-like. BS are actual specifications, also not guarantees, and it would be impractical to list all of them that apply to a complex product. BSG has no enforcement mechanism, and - of course - BS marks are widely faked.

I feel chaps get CE marks out of perspective. As a system it's on a par with the others. Sure it's misused on on cheap tat, but as a system it's much more effective on expensive goods. I shall be very surprised if CE marks disappear within ten years, if ever, on British imports and exports.

The key to all these systems is enforcement, or rather lack of. For good and bad reasons most governments strongly favour self-regulation and few maintain well-staffed Trading Standards organisations. These are too busy to worry about grandad buying a £4.99 Rolex on ebay when big money crime like counterfeit tobacco is rampant. (No CE marks on fake fags!)

I'm afraid 'where there's a will there's a way' isn't an effective way of solving difficult legal or economic problems. Works well enough for geeing up a tired Rugby team, but total poo as a way of passing A-Level Maths after not bothering to study the subject.

No need to argue about it. Time will tell.

Dave

Mike Poole15/08/2019 18:20:00
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3676 forum posts
82 photos

If the CE mark is now a complete waste of time then it may as well be dispensed with, it has no value to me as it is so widely faked, the rubbish about China Export is probably because they got caught out and just manufactured a lie or deliberately set out to deceive. The part of the CE process that has any value is probably the documentation that demonstrates compliance. Perhaps the symbol should be changed and then if that turns up faked then it would be obvious that a deliberate fraud is going on and not an accidental similarity which I am sure was no accident.

Mike

Neil Wyatt15/08/2019 18:41:01
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19226 forum posts
749 photos
86 articles

If anyone is foolish enough to think swapping a BS kitemark for a CE mark is going to have any effect in the real world is as deluded as anyone who thinks swapping the BS kitemark for a CE mark changed anything...

The point where a CE mark has its effect is when your product kills or injures someone, sets fire to their home or some such incident.

The seller/importer is then asked to produce the certification evidence for the CE mark. If they have it, then they may well be able to escape legal liability for what went wrong.

If they can't, then they are probably deeply in the doody.

In short, anyone falsely certifying products as CE compliant is gambling.

Neil

Ian Johnson 115/08/2019 19:07:22
381 forum posts
102 photos

Good point regarding changing the symbol, it could work but only if it is rigorously enforced. Bit like when John Bloor bought Triumph motorcycles, first thing he did was to change the Triumph logo, and make sure the new logo wasn't used without permission. The old logo is fair game for copiers.

I always get my quality tools from reputable dealers, like Machine DRO, Chronos, Arc to name a few. I am confident they would never sell fake stuff. They have got a lot more to lose from selling fake products than I have.

Ian

SillyOldDuffer15/08/2019 20:01:25
10668 forum posts
2415 photos
Posted by Mike Poole on 15/08/2019 18:20:00:

If the CE mark is now a complete waste of time then it may as well be dispensed with, it has no value to me ...

Mike

Trouble is CE Marks are essential when the UK wants to export to Europe. Unlike the cheap Chinese tat people get aerated about seriously big money is at stake.

Say a British company wants to sell 50 new £2M MRI Scanners to Germany. The product has to be CE marked. Today the mark is obtained by preparing the technical file etc and presenting it to a British Notifying Body who authorise the CE mark. There are four Notifying Bodies in the UK qualified to CE certify medical equipment. Post-Brexit, all UK Notifying Bodies are disqualified! In future any British exports requiring a CE Mark will have to obtain it from an approved EU-27 Notified Body, that is one not in this country.

As 55% of UK exports go to Europe dumping CE marking is unlikely.

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 15/08/2019 20:05:26

Jens Eirik Skogstad15/08/2019 20:32:17
avatar
400 forum posts
22 photos

Compare the CE marking and learn out which of them is real or fake as here.. Real CE vs fake CE..

Mark Gould 115/08/2019 21:06:22
231 forum posts
131 photos

Regardless of the markings, the thing that would scare me most about buying fake calipers is that as the battery depletes they can start giving erroneous readings. I think AvE did a video about this a couple of years ago. Either AvE or Pierres Garage I can’t remember,

Robert Atkinson 215/08/2019 21:31:38
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1891 forum posts
37 photos

To be pedantic, it's not the CE mark that is fake, it's that the product is non-compliant. For most things its self certification. As has been said a lack of enforcemet is an issue. Unless there is a complaint or injury there is no enforcement. The Australian system, CTick, haas the useful twist that while self certifiying you have to register the product (on line these days) so they can do random spot checks without ever having to see the product on the market.

The big problem is no one seems to care. There is also an issue with one offs and items built for own use. There is a common misconception that these are exempt, but they are not. There used to be an exemption from actually marking in the old Low Voltage Directive (you still had to do all the compliance work) which was often quoted in this regard. It was dropped in the new revision. It is a potential issue for companies who mke equipment for use in house. In the event of an accident they could be prosecuted or have insurance invalidated.

Robert G8RPI.

Former Member15/08/2019 21:49:38

[This posting has been removed]

Former Member16/08/2019 08:14:18

[This posting has been removed]

SillyOldDuffer16/08/2019 09:03:03
10668 forum posts
2415 photos
Posted by Barrie Lever on 15/08/2019 21:49:38:

Dave

You really don't know what you are talking about regarding CE marking, as Robert has said the great majority of products are self certified.

The very clear difference between CE and UL/CSA is that the latter have to be submitted to the test house.

Check out the following and get back to me if I need to issue you an apology !!

https://cemarking.net/ce-self-certification/

https://www.conformance.co.uk/ce-marking-for-products/ce-marking-basic-information#what-can-i-do-myself

CE marking is not worth the small amount of ink used to print the label.

The system needs to be independently verified with a unique ID for each product, then it would have some value, like I say, where there is a will there is a way.

Regards

Barrie

Phew, thank god Barrie has pointed out I don't understand the CE system! Now there will be no real world consequences from the mistake. What a relief!

Unfortunately reading Barrie's links soon show it is Barrie who has the wrong end of the stick. True it is possible to self-certify quite a wide range of items at the moment. But self-certification applies to the cheap simple stuff with low safety issues, not the high-value items that make up British exports. (Non-EU manufacturers cannot self-certify; they can provide the documentation and markings, but it is the importer who is responsible.)

Presumably Barrie read the phrase;Generally, you can do everything yourself because the CE marking procedure is one of self-certification.' and stopped reading. The next sentence is: 'The only cases where it is not possible for the manufacturer/importer to do everything themselves are when the relevant directives specifically state that a Notified Body must be involved in the assessment of the products. These are organisations designated by national governments of the member states as being competent to make independent judgments about whether or not a product complies with the essential safety requirements laid down by the directives.' Broadly, this covers Medical Equipment, Radio Equipment, Pressure Equipment, ATEX (Explosive Atmospheres), Machinery, Work Equipment, and General Product Safety.

I'll try and make the point again: scrapping a system because no-one bothers to enforce minor transgressions (a local funding choice), is a bad idea when it screws over British exports of expensive items. Barrie is inflamed about Far Eastern import "bargains" that turn out to be duds, I'm worrying about British exports to Europe worth about £250,000,000,000 a year. That part of the CE system works. Anyone ever seen a European CE mark that was faked?

Just to finish off, self-certification is only legal when done in an EU member state. Self-certified CE Marks issued in the UK have no validity after Brexit until reasserted by the European importer. Be interesting to see how the Europeans respond to that detail; they might ignore or it, or they might apply the rules rigorously, inspecting containers at the border and turning back any containing non-compliant goods. You can't leave a club and expect to keep member privileges.

Dave

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