warco 220 wiring

Hi

hope someone can help, i have replaced the motor on my warco(mastroy) 220 and cant get it to run.

it is a 1 phase cap start cap run of the correct hp and size, but just hums in forward or reverse, if i turn it by hand it turns slowly for 1/2 a turn or so and stops, i am guessing i have wired something up wrong. does any one have a pic or drawing of the connectors, all my wires have cable markers on them V1 etc and i have wired them to the corresponding terminals,U1 to U 1, V1 to v1, u2 to u2 v2 to v2 and what looks like W1 to Z1. I do not have a wire for Z2 though and it goes in side the casing, any ideas greatly appreciatedthanks

D

The motor is a single phase reversible. There are normally 4 wires + 1 earth wire from the switch, the earth wire connects to the motor frame. 2 of the wires are L and N and connect to run terminals, the other 2 connect to the start terminals. Terminal designations can vary Look carefully at the terminals, make sure you have removed both links. Connect only to the terminals that have 1 wire on them, the capacitor and start winding are connected together on 1 of the terminals, do not connect anything else to that terminal. There are usually 4 equispaced terminals,  the start winding is connected to one diagonal pair, the run winding to the other diagonal pair.

Dave

Edited By daveb on 30/01/2014 22:49:58

Edited By daveb on 30/01/2014 23:14:47

David,

I have the manual complete with wiring diagrams for both single and three-phase if that's any help. Already copied for someone else so dead easy to send via email.

Suggest contact via PM if required.

Peter G. Shaw

Hi Peter

many thanks for the offer of a wiring diagram, but i have the one supplied from warco i am being a little dim and cant seem to transfer the diagram to my lathe.

Dave

many thanks for your help, my lathe has 5 wires plus the earth, i have found Live and neutral but really cant see where the other 3 go, the connection block has 6 connections it is clear to see where + and _ go and also i can identify both run and start capacitor connections.

does any one have a clear photo showing cable identifications of the connection box please

many thanks

D

Hi David,
I suspect that the motor is supplied with links fitted so that it will run without a reversing switch. I think these will have to be removed. I am assuming the wiring diagram for your lathe is the same as this one I found on the web. Did your original motor have links fitted ? I think you should try to find someone with electrical knowledge that lives near to you.It is much easier to solve a problem like this when you can work on the machine.

Les.

Hi Les

links were fitted but have been removed, i fear i may have to pay someone to sort it out.

many thanks

D

Hi David,
I was puzzled as to why there are 5 wires (Rather than the normal 4) going to the motor so I traced out how it was wired from the schematic shown in the link in my last message. (You did not say if this is the same as yours.) I have decided that it is to avoid having to break the connection between one end of the main winding and the centrifugal switch. I am not sure how you have connected wires U1 and U2 as in the diagram of the motor uses the term U1 ans U2 in two ways. They are used both to define terminals and the ends of the main winding. Can you draw out HOW THE TERMINALS ON YOUR MOTOR are marked and also show which terminals have the capacitors connected to them. If possible also check which terminals have the centrifugal switch connected to them. (This switch will be closed when the motor is stopped.) Do you have a multimeter with a resistance range that can distinguish between zero ohms and the fairly low resistance value of the windings ? Can you gain access to the two output terminals on the main contactor. (Or the input terminals on the reversing switch) ? If the answer to both these questions is yes then I will get you to do some tests to check that the wires are marked as in the diagram and that the reversing switch is working correctly. It occurred to me that fault / apparent fault on the original motor could be caused by a fault on the reversing switch.

Les.

Edited By Les Jones 1 on 03/02/2014 09:06:54

Les,

I think it is important to recognise that this lathe is wired for 3-phase working and is simply rearranged for single-phase working. Hence U1, V1 and W1 (and U2, V2 and W2) are actually 3-phase terminology. Also, the DOL switch is identical for both versions however the Fwd-Off-Rev switch (PGP) does not appear to be.

It appears that Neutral and Live (to use the old terminology) are always connected through to U1 and W1 regardless of rotational direction. This leads me to think that the run winding is connected to these wires.

V1, V2 and U2 appear to be interconnected via a pair of single pole changeover switches (internal to the PGP) such that either V1 or V2 is connected to Live whilst the other terminal is connected to U2 depending on rotational direction. I suspect that V1 and V2 are probably the start winding with U2 going to the centrifugal switch and start capacitor (series connection) with the run capacitor in parallel across the switch and start capacitor. Thus reversing is done by reversing the current and hence magnetic flux through the start winding.

This article - http://www.ecollege.ie/site/liu/electrical_notes/LL241.pdf - shows this.

My problem is that Dave says he has a Z1 and a Z2 terminal. Therefore, as you say, he needs to determine just what connections he has on his new motor, and only then can the correct connections be worked out.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

ps. I have a 220 lathe but cannot easily get to the rear of it so cannot examine it.

Hi Peter,
This is my understanding of how the motor is meant to be connected. (From the information in the link on my post of 02/02/14 20:36)

I assume "PGP" is a drum type switch. Contacts 1 to 2 and 9 to 10 form a two pole switch to switch the power to the motor. Contacts 5 to 6, 11 to 12, 3 to 4, and 7 to 8 form the change over switch to reverse the connections to the auxiliary winding. (Labeled start in the diagram.) The 5 wires highlighted in yellow are the 5 wires between the switch and the motor. The "F" and "R" shown between the switch contacts show when they are closed. Would it be possible to send me a copy of the schematic that you have ? I will send a PM with my email, address.

Les.

Les,

Schematics sent.

Peter

Hi Guys

thanks in advance for your help. here is a drawing of my motor connections, i have a feeling that the centrifugal switch is on pins Z2 and V2 but will check this afternoon and confirm later. I do have a digital multimeter so can check certain things if need be. i can easily remove the rear cover to access the centrifugal switch. With regard to the reversing switch this intact and untouched,( easy access to this) the original motor was stolen whilst stripped down and in storage some years ago.

regards and thanks again

D

Hi David,
Although the terminals on the new motor use the same letter/number combinations they are not connected in the same way as those shown on the link I posted. For example the junction of the 2 capacitors is connected to Z1 on your motor. The one in the link shows this point as connected to U2. For the capacitors to be in parallel when the centrifugal switch is closed then I would expect it to be between V1 an V2 on the diagram of your motor. You can verify this by measuring the resistance between these two points. Could you draw a diagram of where the links were fitted to your motor as supplied and also which terminals the mains was connected to. Also measure the resistance between all of the pairs of terminal and make a list of them It will help to identify which terminals are connected to the windings.

Les.

Dave,

You will be aware that Les and I have been communication away from the board. Briefly, we are in agreement over how the PGP switch device in the front works, however, we need to know to which terminals the start and run windings are connected. Actually, start coil is the wrong term, auxiliary winding is more correct. You need to measure the DC resistance of the two windings. I believe, ie I can't lay my hands on it at the moment, that the Main (Run) winding will be the lower value of the two.

I think this diagram: http://www.ecollege.ie/site/liu/electrical_notes/LL241.pdf, on page 37 will be of help.

We think that the wiring from the PGP switch will be:

Full mains supply will be on W1 (Live) and U1 (neutral). This will probably be connected directly across the main run winding.

Leads V1 and V2 will probably be the auxiliary(start) winding which is reversible to give FWD-REV. Now the way the PGP works is that it connects full Live to one or the other of these leads. The other of the V1/V2 wires which is NOT connected to full mains, is instead connected to lead U2 which in turn needs to be connected to the series/parallel connections of the main/start capacitors and the centrifugal switch.

It seems to me that your Z1 will need to be connected to Neutral. Whether this is the lead U1, or whether it is via a link will depend on the connections to the main(run) winding. If the main(run) winding is also connected to your Z1, then no further linking will be required, and lead U1 connected straight to your Z1.

It seems to me that your V2 should have the centrifugal switch between it and the start capacitor. If so, then it probably needs to be connected to your V1 and then to lead U2.

If your main(run) winding is connected at one side to Z1 then a reasonable guess might be that Z2 is the other main winding terminal in which case it neads to be connected to lead W1.

This leaves your U1 and U2 which if they are the auxiliary(start) winding need connecting directly to leads V1 and V2. Which way round will be subject to trial and error, ie does it run in the right direction.

There is just one other point. It doesn't matter which of the two windings is reversible. It will depend on what you find.

As ever, be careful with mains.

No doubt Les will be along sometime to say more. I've a sneaky suspicion that he knows rather more about these things than I do (which wouldn't be difficult anyway)!

Regards,

Peter

ps. Les has beaten me to it!

Edited By Peter G. Shaw on 04/02/2014 14:40:33

Edited By Peter G. Shaw on 04/02/2014 14:41:27

Edited By Peter G. Shaw on 04/02/2014 14:42:15

Hi

with multimeter set on 200ohms i get the following readings, i have disconnected both caps for this.

Z2 to Z1 8.7 ohms

U2 to U1 6.5 ohms

V2 to V1 1 ohm

no other connection make a circuit

the centrifugal switch is on V1 and V2

according to the supplier :-

remove 2 bars/links

live is to terminal 2 on reverse switch and neutral is terminal 6

from the reversing switch 1 to U1 live in both directions

5 to U2 neutral in both directions

9 to V1 alternates live to neutral between positions

13 to Z2 alternates neutral to live between positions

on my reverse switch there are 12 contacts so really dont know where they get 13 from.

the motor is currently of the lathe and i have easy access to all parts, hope this helps.

i shall hopefully reassemble this evening

D

when the motor was supplied it had links between U1 and V 1 and a second on Z2 and U2 this was for clockwise direction. for anticlockwise the links are ment to be on Z2 andU1 and the second on U2and V!

Hi Dave,
I am not clear how much of your last post is instructions from the supplier and how much is the wiring on your reversing switch.

"according to the supplier :-

remove 2 bars/links

live is to terminal 2 on reverse switch and neutral is terminal 6

from the reversing switch 1 to U1 live in both directions

5 to U2 neutral in both directions

9 to V1 alternates live to neutral between positions

13 to Z2 alternates neutral to live between positions"

Is all of this in the quotes instructions from the supplier ? Or is the last part how your reversing switch is wired ?

If live and neutral from the contactor connect to terminals 2 and 6 on the reversing switch on your lathe then it is wired differently from the diagram in the link (and the information from peter.)

IF YOUR REVERSING SWITCH IS WIRED AS IN THE DIAGRAM IN THE LINK I POSTED ON 02/02/14 AT 20;36
then the motor should work connected as follows.

Wire Motor terminal
U1 U1
W1 U2
U2 U2
V1 V1
V2 Z2

NOTE THERE WILL BE TWO WIRES CONNECTED TO MOTOR TERMINAL U2 (wire U2 & wire W1)

Forward and reverse may be transposed. If so swap over wires V1 and V2 so that wire V1 goes to motor terminal Z2 and wire V2 goes to motor terminal V1

IF YOU ARE NOT SURE THAT YOUR LATHE IS WIRED AS PER THE DIAGRAM THEN DO NOT TRY THESE CONNECTIONS.

If it is not as in the diagram then you will need trace out how it is wired.

Les.

Dave,

Cox, in his WSP books does suggest that the lower resistance winding is the main winding. Therefore U1-U2 is likely to be the main winding and Z1-Z2 the auxiliary/start winding. This actually agrees with Tubal Cain's drawings in his ME Handbook where he shows Z terminals as the start winding and A terminals as the run winding. It also agrees with the drawings in the reference I gave earlier.

The fact that the auxiliary/start winding is connected to Z1, and to the two capacitors suggests to me that any reversing has to be done on the Main/run winding.

Now, like Les, I am unclear about the second part of your message where you talk about "according to the supplier". And like Les, I do wonder if your Fwd-off-Rev switch is the same as mine.

As it happens, I have just remembered that I do have a copy of the Warco manual for this machine and having a quick look does indeed show slightly different wiring arangements for the switch. Indeed a quick glance suggests that Neutral is permanently wired to connections 1, 3 & 7 on the switch with live going to connections 5, 9 & 11. May I ask you to have a look at your switch and see if you agree with that. Let me know if you do. Also, how many wires do you have between switch and motor - Warco's diagram shows four, not counting earth. And finally, as you indicate that the motor connecting leads are identified, could you say which lead goes to which terminal on the switch.

In the meantime, I'l have look at Warco's diagram tomorrow and see if I can make any sense of it. I'll get back to you later.

Les, I'll send you a copy of the Warco diagrams separately so you can study them yourself.

Regards,

Peter

Hi,

Marvellous how your brain works in the bath!

Ok, back to first principles. Let's forget about reversing for now and just concentrate on getting the motor running. Now, both windings need to be powered for that to happen, except that one winding is straight across the mains supply and the other is via a capacitor. Secondly, we need to switch out of circuit the start capacitor when a suitable speed has been reached. Therefore I suggest the following:

Connect U1 to Z1 and to either Live or Neutral, it doesn't matter which but see below. Now, one of the windings is permanently connected to the capacitors. Therefore that connection is NOT used. To start the motor both capacitors must be in circuit and then the one between Z1 and V2 disconnected. This is the start capacitor. Therefore connect the other mains lead to V1 and U2. The motor should now run. Note that there is no connection to V2.

Now, for motor running, we need a permanent power to one of the windings and reversible power to the other, but lets leave the reversible bit for the moment.

So, unplug the lathe from the mains, remove the DOL switch cover and see if you can operate the contactor by hand. If not, then see if you can identify the two leads running between the DOL unit and the FWD-Off-REV switch. If possible use the contactor method as this will prove the circuit right the way through. Connect your meter between the Live pin on the plug, operate the switch to Fwd, manually operate the contactor and look with the other meter lead on the connections to the motor, not the actual motor itself, one of the U1,U2,V1,V2 wires. You should, I think find two that are connected through. Move the switch to REV and one of the leads will become disconnected. The remaining lead will be your permanent Live lead. Repeat for the Neutral connection.

Now having identified the permanent Live and Neutral wires, you can connect to U1/Z1 and U2/V1 on the motor which should now run, unidirectionally only, but under control of the Fwd-Off-Rev switch. My suggestion based on the diagram in the article I suggested, would be to connect Neutral to V1/U2 and Live to Z1/U1. But if you do this, remember that the two unused wires will also be either live and neutral, or neutral and live. Please take care to make them safe.

Now to sort out the reversing. This can only be done by means of the U1-U2 winding, and if you only have four wires to the motor, then the two remaining wires are the ones to use. So remove the U1-Z1 and U2-V1 links leaving the two permanent power connections in situ on Z1(Live) and V1 (neutral). Now connect the two remaining wires to U1 and U2 and the motor should run and be reversible. If you have five wires, then I need to think again.

If the moter does run the wrong way, then either reverse the U1& U2 connections, or the Z1 and V1 connections.

Looking at the diagram in the reference I gave, it shows the capacitors connected to neutral. Therefore I would suggest that V1 should be neutral and Z1 Live.

Regards, and Goodnight,

Peter

Edited By Peter G. Shaw on 04/02/2014 23:21:49

Hi David,
I will start by repeating part of my last post as pasting it into the post from notepad changed tab characters to a single space character. (For this forum I tend to type things into notepad first as the rubbish software on this forum often looses what has been typed.)

Wire            Motor terminal
U1               U1
W1              U2
U2               U2
V1               V1
V2               Z2

---------------------------

To check if your lathe is wired as in the diagram show on the link I posted do the following tests.
This is with no power to the lathe and the 5 wires NOT connected to the motor.

With the reversing switch in the left hand position on the diagram (I do not know which is designated forward and reverse.)

Connect one of your meter leads (We will call it A) to terminal 1 on the reversing switch. (Or terminal 6 on the contactor if this is easier)
Now connect the other meter lead to the 5 wires in turn.
It should show continuity to only wire U1

Move meter lead A to terminal 9 on the reversing switch (Or terminal 2 on the contactor.)
Now connect the other meter lead to the 5 wires in turn.
You should get continuity to wire W1 and wire V2 only

Move meter lead A to wire U2
Now connect the other meter lead to the 5 wires in turn.
It should show continuity to only wire V1 only

Move the reversing switch to the right hand position.
Connect meter lead A to terminal 1 on the reversing switch. (Or terminal 6 on the contactor
Now connect the other meter lead to the 5 wires in turn.
It should show continuity to only wire U1

Move meter lead A to terminal 9 on the reversing switch (Or terminal 2 on the contactor.)
Now connect the other meter lead to the 5 wires in turn.
You should get continuity to wire W1 and wire V1 only

Move meter lead A to wire U2
Now connect the other meter lead to the 5 wires in turn.
It should show continuity to only wire V2 only.

With the switch in the middle (Off) position there should be no continuity between terminal 1 or 9 and any of the wires and there should be no continuity between wire U2 and any of the other 4 wires.

If you do not get these results make a table of the results of the tests.

Peter,
I received the two PDF's of the alternative wiring diagrams. This version is the more conventional way of wiring the motor with 4 wires between the reversing switch and the motor. I think the original 5 wire version is to enable it to be used with motors where it is difficult to break the connection between one end of the main winding and the centrifugal switch inside the motor.

Les.

Edited By Les Jones 1 on 05/02/2014 08:39:22

Hi peter and les

Les i have done continuity checks as you suggested and everything tallys with your notes,I have connected the motor as stated but it does not run, in forward and reverse it hums but no turning, turning by hand does not start it either.

Peter

i am going to check your suggestions but forgive me for a stupid question is the DOL switch you mention the large power on/off switch box at the far right hand side of the lathe.

Gentlemen many thanks again for your help

D

Hi Dave,
I have just checked the list of connections I gave you and found an error. Wire U2 should go to terminal U1 not U2 as I have shown in the list.. So terminal U1 should have wires U1 and U2 connected. Terminal U2 should just have wire W1 connected. This error would mean that there would be no power to the auxiliary winding .Sorry about the error.

Les.