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Circlip12/11/2009 11:14:45
1723 forum posts
Starting a new topic for this one, as, looking on another Forum the other day, it was suggested that a certain material was far more suitable for a given application than the norm in Toy sizes. What the poster ommited to mention, possibly due to ignorance of the material involved is that it is highly toxic and a LITTLE care is required in its use.
 
 One of the problems with todays education system is that the "I've got some spare time/cash so i'll have a go at that" brigade have never or will, learn about the pitfalls of some methods and materials without some old fart giving them the Heads Up.
 
  Seen what happens to PTFE when you burn it ????
 
  First don't SMOKE over the vapours, - you can DIE.
 
 Second, don't touch the black sludge, it's called HydroFlouric Acid, (Look that one up for Yerselves.)
 
  Oiled brown paper over the slides? Good idea, especially when you're machining Titanium - NOT.  And Titanium is being used more extensively nowadays for Toys - cos it's available. Have a read at the FLAMABILITY warnings, makes Magnesium almost safe. I read that another well respected old Fart has a large metal Baking tray clamped between his milling table and the vise, THAT stops turnings falling into the slots, easy to clean too.
 
  After having to ensure that ones workforce didn't hurt themselves (Or the equipment they used, or THEIR workmates) in industry, whilst NOT trying to be a Galactic Guardian on safety, it is rather annoying when some glib gobby twits seem to regard it as second nature to everyone and scoff at attempts to EDUCATE those without the experiance of an engineering career to SOME of the pitfalls.
 
  Capt. Mainwaring and Cpl. Jones may find it amusing, but Fraser finds it sad.
 
  Regards  Ian.
David Colwill12/11/2009 15:09:02
782 forum posts
40 photos
I have heard that some O rings can release hydroflouric if heated also I beleive that tufnol  can give off toxic fumes when machined. I am sure that there are many other nasty things lurking around that I am completely unaware of. While like most people I read and listen to any warnings and advice on these matters (and take them very seriously) most of my experience is gained from actually doing things which on reflection is not the best way.
It would be an excellent use for this site, if it could have some kind of data base for materials and processes that pointed out some of the pitfalls, so that those of us who lack experience in some area could "gen up" beforehand . The fact that most of the articles have already been written and published should save some time. If only one serious accident were avoided it would be worthwhile.
Ian Abbott12/11/2009 19:00:51
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279 forum posts
21 photos
'Kay, a few simple but nasty ones.
 
Lacquer thinner, destroys brain cells, is both absorbed through the skin and inhaled. Always  wear a respirator with organic cartridges, gloves and full cover.  Also a fan blowing away from the user.
 
N-hexane.  This is a light petroleum distillate.  Used in things like spray adhesive, it fries the myelin coating on the nervous system, leaving damage similar to multiple sclerosis. 
I know this one from personal experience and it 'aint nice.
N-hexane used to be found on the MSDS sheets, until the chemical companies found out what it did.  Now, it's just lumped together under the general heading of "Petroleum Distillates".  Nice of them.
Solvent cement used for joining plastic plumbing pipes can cause the same damage.  I'm not sure if it's n-hexane, but the outcome is the same.
Organic cartridge respirator, fan and gloves again for any stuff like this. 
 
Fumes from arc welding are bad, as are soldering fumes.  Generally, moving air will suffice, respirators aren't that convenient for this, but there are some nice, but expensive air flow helmets and visors.  Acid based soldering flux fumes can cause eye damage, I'm told.
 
Off the wall one here.  Wash hands _before_  going to the loo.  Genital cancer is common in engineering circles.
 
Ian
Paul Hanson16/11/2009 15:26:27
3 forum posts
This is a very good suggestion - as someone who belongs to the spare/time cash, have a go brigade (although without either the time or the cash!)  I welcome this.
 
Basic safety is a must and although I think I am fairly sensible in practical arena (machines etc) I have little knowledge on the materials side.
 
Can I suggest that the administrators give this a category of it's own that contains threads rather than being a thread - otherwise it's visibility is only as good as when the last item was posted.
chris stephens17/11/2009 16:10:58
1049 forum posts
1 photos
Hi Circlip,
Can I ask if you have personal experience of machining Titanium.
chriStephens
 

 
  Oiled brown paper over the slides? Good idea, especially when you're machining Titanium - NOT.  And Titanium is being used more extensively nowadays for Toys - cos it's available. Have a read at the FLAMABILITY warnings, makes Magnesium almost safe. I read that another well respected old Fart has a large metal Baking tray clamped between his milling table and the vise, THAT stops turnings falling into the slots, easy to clean too.
 
  After having to ensure that ones workforce didn't hurt themselves (Or the equipment they used, or THEIR workmates) in industry, whilst NOT trying to be a Galactic Guardian on safety, it is rather annoying when some glib gobby twits seem to regard it as second nature to everyone and scoff at attempts to EDUCATE those without the experiance of an engineering career to SOME of the pitfalls.
 
  Capt. Mainwaring and Cpl. Jones may find it amusing, but Fraser finds it sad.
 
  Regards  Ian.

 

Circlip17/11/2009 16:18:38
1723 forum posts
YES
chris stephens17/11/2009 16:26:45
1049 forum posts
1 photos
Hi Circlip,
Then you should know better, and you are wrong about comparing Titanium with Magnesium. 
chriStephens
David Clark 117/11/2009 17:10:34
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3357 forum posts
112 photos
10 articles
Hi There
Never had a problem with titanium even with heavy metal removal. 100 thou cuts.
Now magnesium, I machined a wheel once, (car) and it was just spotface deeper.
Started to burn - swarf decided to catch fire.
 
Someone shouted turn the soluble on.
Big Mistake!
Oxygen in the soluble helped combustion.
So if you set magnesium (or titanium) on fire, make sure you have abucket of sand handy.
regards David
 
 
mgj17/11/2009 18:45:10
1017 forum posts
14 photos
I must admit I've never had a problem machining Ti. I don't like the stuff as a material, and one has to be very careful about surface finish if it is to be in a stressed application., you just have to keep it cool as has been suggested, (lots of coolant) and clear the swarf.
 
Magnesium is, as has also been pointed out, a bit more interesting - both to weld and machine.  Its Ok if you do it under argon.. Pays well.
 
I think I'm OK on this one - about engineering careers. One ordinary degree (sort of - long story but all sorts of bits and bobs to do with tanks), one MSc, (guidance and control theory, propulsion, and aerodynamics , strengths of materials, mechanics, warheads and so forth) and a while spent at military experimental estabishments fiddling about with guns, motors and armour and other bits and bobs at trials units,  - mine plough, odds and sods in the IR spectrum in thermal imaging, fire control equipment, oh and even some of the new depeleted fin ammunition in its ealry guises - and a little while in Defence Quality Assurance. policing other peoples engineering.Brit Steel castings at Sheffield,Bavid Brown Gears, Commercial Hydraulics(gearboxes and variable swashplate motors used as double differentials), Rolls Royce(Perkins), plus Vickers at Newcastle and Royal Ordnance as was, at Barnbow in Leeds. So one was expected to know what one was on about.
 
-------------
 
O rings and hydrofluoric acid. Quite willing to stand corrected, but I believe the problem is limited to Viton rings, and only if they are used outside the recommended temperature range. Like all things there is a tech spec and that spec should not be exceeded without being certain of what one is doing. .
 
If you get down on your knees and ask for touble, don't be surprised if it visits you in full measure.

Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 17/11/2009 18:50:49

chris stephens17/11/2009 19:05:12
1049 forum posts
1 photos
Hi Meyrick,
Even with all that experience behind you, I bet you got more of a thrill out of  getting your traction engine running.
On the subject of dangerous products of combustion, even AA men are warned about not touching some of the burnt rubber (viton?) components after a vehicle fire, for that very reason. Forewarned is forearmed, doesn't say you can't touch the rest of the car, though.
chriStephens

Edited By chris stephens on 17/11/2009 19:33:07

mgj17/11/2009 19:39:20
1017 forum posts
14 photos
Some was plainly a lot of fun, some was grimly satisfying, when one had forced a rectification - brittle martensitic transition in stainless welds on ferritic armour.  But yes - your own thing after so long. Even if it did need a helping hand for its first start. Yes, it was OK.
 
Worth all that coffee.
ChrisH17/11/2009 20:15:23
1023 forum posts
30 photos
"Can I suggest that the administrators give this (materials and their possible evils! CH) a category of it's own that contains threads rather than being a thread - otherwise it's visibility is only as good as when the last item was posted." - from Paul Hanson.
 
Paul, I'm with you on this - a damn good idea, would be very illuminating, informative and advisory.
 
ChrisH 
Circlip17/11/2009 21:26:59
1723 forum posts
Another thread in danger of being hijacked by the intrusion of Stan and Ollie, however, good points by Paul H and Chris H so what about it D C??? and just to clarify for those who are able to listen and note, the guys who HAVE had Ti. fires will tell you that it DOES burn as fierce as Magnesium.
 
  Cautionary regards  Ian.
Windy17/11/2009 21:34:58
avatar
910 forum posts
197 photos
Regards Viton products in vehicle fires when I was in the motor body repair trade we had warnings about the hazards. Look at the HSE site now about the risks it makes interesting reading.   
 
Windy
David Clark 118/11/2009 08:15:43
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3357 forum posts
112 photos
10 articles
Machining materials new thread is here.

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/threads.asp?t=173

Edited By David Clark 1 on 18/11/2009 08:19:45

ChrisH18/11/2009 10:04:57
1023 forum posts
30 photos
Thank you for that David.
 
ChrisH 
Niloch18/11/2009 10:11:45
371 forum posts
A very good idea David.  Would it be possible to (a) insert some sub-divisions into the thread, e.g. brass, cast iron, stainless steel etc so that the information would be more readily available; (b) copy and paste SOME of the above into the new thread?  I suspect that there are large numbers of model engineers who are never likely to want to machine magnesium, depleted uranium, osmium,  frozen chewing gum etc. so please be selective as to the quantity of posts copied and pasted regarding the more exotic materials; (c) don't let's forget the non-metals, plastics; natural materials antique ivory or its substitute, bone etc.
David Clark 118/11/2009 10:38:53
avatar
3357 forum posts
112 photos
10 articles
Hi There
No way of introducing sub categories.
If any one would like to copy mesages over please do.
I don't have the time.
regards David
 
Circlip18/11/2009 11:20:16
1723 forum posts
Thanks David.
chris stephens18/11/2009 13:31:12
1049 forum posts
1 photos

Hi Circlip, (and anyone who wants to know more)

I do wonder why you mentioned on a model engineering forum the fire potential of Titanium and the risk involved with oiled Kraft paper, most model engineers will, most likely, have never seen or touched Titanium let alone machined it. Industrial machinists would have no need of protecting their mill tables in such a way, and they would or should know how to handle such "exotics"! If a large mass of Titanium does catch alight, through carelessness, the paper will be the least of their problems.The new listing of machining materials, will help to educate those wishing to use some of the more exotic materials.

For those unfamiliar with Titanium, it is a light weight non rusting metal, it is easy to machine PROVIDED you don't let the tool rub. If you think Stainless work hardens, it is as nothing to Titanium! Titanium will almost "spontaneously" combust, if provoked but read more further down. Quite a few non professional designers ask for it thinking it is the answer to all their weight and strength problems, WRONG. What they really need is a metal called "Unobtainium", but that is another topic.

Now for those interested in some personal experiences;-

In a Titanium fire, what happens is it smolders brightly, very pretty but if one does not let the shavings built up to any great extent it is only a minor inconvenience. Granted one must be aware of the risk, but Magnesium is in a whole different ball game. When Magnesium burns the temperature is so great that water, put on it to quench the fire, can be split into Hydrogen and Oxygen thus fuelling it, hence the use of sand in wartime fire drill. A few shavings of Titanium can virtually be spat on, that's if they don't just burn themselves out before you can think about it. Moral is, don't let them build up to a critical mass. Magnesium and Titanium are similar in that they both emit a brilliant white light when burning, but their rate and ease of combustion are somewhat different.  If you have had a serious Titanium fire, you must be remarkably clumsy or careless !

Titanium burns because it has a very bad ability to conduct heat, so the temperature is maintained once built up by friction until there is enough heat to cause combustion. Clearing shavings prevents this happening, as does sufficient coolant. To demonstrate the effect to "newbies" I often put a bundle of Titanium swarf on the ground and light it with a gas torch, as I said it smolders and then goes out, but it is fun to watch the smolder run along a filament, but is it dangerous in that situation, not at all. The metals lack of heat conduction seems to prevent the heat escaping, to the surrounding. It does teach the said newbie of the risks though. In my opinion, plain ordinary wire wool is far more dangerous; there just a spark from a grinder can set it off, something that will NOT happen with Titanium. Do you have wire wool in your workshop, well I hope you keep it in a tin, lest those pesky little sparks contrive to spoil your day! If you really want a fire risk, you could not do better than use a Linisher to remove rust and then grind some Aluminium, in case you don’t know, that makes a compound called Thermite, look up the risks involved with that!

This morning I did another firing of some Titanium shavings, a small bundle about the size of an egg. (I keep some handy especially for demonstrations)  I lit it with a gas torch, as per usual, and sure enough a very bright light, but it soon went out. I then lit it again, more bright light and then it went out again. I had to light it fifteen, times at different points, before it all oxidized. Now I am not saying you want this to happen by accident on your precious machinery, you don’t! Certainly a large mass of shavings or swarf, once alight, could really spoil your sunny disposition, so don’t let it happen. 


The astute amongst you will of course point out that the shavings were cold before the fire, so the rate of combustion was slower than if they were hot and fresh off the lathe.  As I said Titanium has a very bad ability to conduct heat, so once hot from

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