Suitable Vice and decent milling cutters

Hi Ive just joined and signed to a subscription after buying and Emco FB2. Id like some advice on which vice and milling cutters I should go for. I want a vice that will be accurate not super high end but wont be something I become frustrated bye in a year or two?

Same with the milling cutters. decent quality that will last but not breaking the bank.

For cutters I was thinking surface, end chamfer, 2 and 4 flute to get me going?

I know that might seem vague but hopefully some of you pros can advise.

Places to buy and links are also really useful to this newbie.

I build artist work so the jobs would be quite varied and for the initial part I will just be learning the basics.

With thanks

Hello Richard - welcome to the forum!

You will find all our regular tool suppliers, advertising or cited by users on here, or in the two magazines, sell good quality tools that enable decent-quality work once you've mastered them.

The two types of cutter you mention are 'Slot-Drills' (2 flutes) and End-Mills (usually 4 flutes). There are 3-flute versions too.

They are for different purposes, as their names imply: cutting slots and facing the sides of the work.

A further clue is when looking on the end, you see the slot-mill cutting-edges passing each other whereas the end-mill edges do not usually reach the centre. Indeed, many end-mills have a centre hole allowing their being fully supported on a tool-&-cutter grinder.

To answer your last, and most important question, before you start fraying metal, cutters and your nerves, do please invest in a handbook on basic milling without bogging you down in industrial-grade theory.

E.g that by Harold Hall, and I think another is by Jason Bellamy (one of this site's moderators.) I have a copy of the former, and it leads you through simple tool-making projects that teach you the basics and gives you some useful workshop items in the process. I don't know Jason's book but I am sure others here can vouch for it.

''''

Now, as you realise, even the best cutting-tools blunt with use, at a rate depending on the materials and the way you use them, but milling-cutters are not the easiest to re-sharpen to regain decent performance. Not on an ordinary "off-hand" (bench) grinder. Hall's projects include a fairly simple but effective set of adjustable tool-rests to turn such a grinder into a basic Tool-&-Cutter Grinder. He has also written a book devoted to that subject alone, with the designs for slightly more sophisticated tool-holders.

....

Become familiar with metals and their machining characteristics, if you are not already!

Some types of steel cut beautifully - their alloys are formulated for that. We find others awful - they are made for applications either not needing quality machining, or they do but for making items used in very demanding operating conditions. This crops up quite frequently on this forum, where someone despairs of obtaining a decent surface finish on what we learn is "Unknownium" grade steel bought from a builder's merchant or scavenged from a scrapped machine.

(Only yesterday I turned a piece of oversize, rough-surface, 6mm dia steel from B&Q: I knew I had to think what tooling to use for a fair result fit for purpose.)

You need think of processes. For example, "free-cutting mild-steel" (EN1A - I don't know its official new designation) machines beautifully, but is not for welding.

....

Finally, your question is about milling.

Do you have a lathe? Without knowing exactly what you intend making, most of us here would probably assume you will need a lathe, and may already own one.

Dear Nigel, thank you for your thorough reply and yes I also bought a Emco 8.4 lathe with the FB2. It has an issue with the faster feed rate speed for the main screw (it doesnt seem to stay in position when pulled out. I was hoping I might address that when I get more time and use your members advice too. Both machine are still in my Landrover whilst I arrange an engine hoist to remove and install in the workshop. I think I got an absolute bargin on the two but I still need to spend more time assessing once theyre installed.

Re work that varies depending on what job im working on the next project requires a some kind of revolving head for a clients piece of sculpture. I have ideas and need both machine to make it happen. I will definitely pic up the books you suggested Ive been watching Blondihacks Phil Vandelay and Stefan Gotteswinter on YT plus Ive joined to a yearly subscription of your magazine to see what youre all about. Looking forward to delving into a more precise parameter world to what im used to.

Also the vice it came with is poor any thoughts on my previous question?

Hello Richard ,

Learning milling, requires some time. Even a top quality milling cutter can be blunted in seconds. I would start by buying a few very cheap HSS milling cutters and drills.
Once these are worn down, you could buy a more decent one.
Once you get a decent life time out of your HSS end mills/drills, you could move to the HSS Co5 end mills/drills. These are a bit more expensive but they last a few times longer than plain HSS end mills.

You find a lot of settings for milling and drilling. Most of the time, these settings are for rigid machines and won't work on your milling machine. You have to find settings that work for your setup. Basically I reduce the advised feed/revolution and cutting depth until I get decent results.

I grind my own milling cutters/drills and don't want cobalt dust in my shop. So I buy the hardest HSS grade without Cobalt (HSS M2).
I also use round lathe inner turning bars with inserts (DCMT070204) for hard to mill steel and to remove the first layer of hot rolled steel.

I have 2 Chinese vices (80 mm for 70€ / 100 mm for 120€  that are of poor quality. I used the mill to make the first one more decent. The second vice will be improved when I have a new milling machine. I can still make steel parts within 0.02 mm.

Success with your new machine,

Huub

Edited By Huub on 10/06/2023 23:12:23

Edited By Huub on 10/06/2023 23:12:59

Not sure why I addressed you as Richard, but thankyou for the compliment!

"....faster feed rate for the main screw..." on the lathe.

I am not sure what you mean, and I am not familiar with the Emco lathes, but I take it the 'main screw' is what is actually called the 'lead screw', on all lathes. If so, is the faster feed rate actually a setting for screw-cutting, albeit of a fine-pitch screw?

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Do you have the operating-manual for the lathe? If not I suggest you try to obtain one, either new if that's still possible, or most likely from the lathes.co web-site many of us use as our main reference for machine-tools. If you can see it under Google's appalling graffiti-by-adverts. The proprietor, Tony Griffiths, sells many machine-tool manuals, though not very cheaply, and lists the parts and operating manuals for your lathe and milling-machine in his sections describing them. They might be photocopies rather than original but still worth it, and I have bought from him those for some of my machines.

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Amplifying Huub's point about speeds and feeds, many of those published are for optimum production rates in industrial conditions using larger and beefier machines than those normally found in model-engineering.

I'd avoid using carbide insert tooling until you've built up your skills a bit. They are expensive and cannot be re-sharpened, and sometimes the cheaper and re-sharpenable HSS tooling will also give a better finish. I do use insert tooling, but by no means exclusively. Many aver inserts have to be worked at very high speeds: yes they can be because are designed to run very fast on appropriate factory machines; but I have not found them a problem at modest speeds. Even so, they are by no means as simple as they seem.

Hi mouse welcome to the forum. Where are you based as local supliers and groups with knowledge can help also I have been known to help from time to time to show technical skills and lend tools occasionally. The other thing you must have is a tool grinder if you don't have already but make sure it has the correct grinding wheels etc for your use.

David

Mouse

It's a truism that model engineer and home shop machinery is frequently required to handle jobs that objectively are too large for the machine. Something that needs to be born in mind when selecting work holding and tooling. Most important when considering a milling machine because everything goes inside the work envelope

Before finally purchasing tooling and work holding for your mill it's worth doing some drawings to see how much space the various options leave you. Many folk buy a vice with a rotating base and habitually leave the rotary base off to get an inch or so extra clearance under the head.

For example by small machine standards a 1/2" or 12.5 mm drill and chuck is a very long assembly hanging below the head. Its a right pain if you have to pull everything off, remove the base from the vice and put it all back to get that 1/4'' or 6 mm clearance the drill needs to get into the right position. All users of small machines doing small jobs should seriously consider investing in sub drills. Seem excessive to pay for 4", 100 mm, of drilling depth capability when your thickest job is only ever going to be 1/2", 12.5 mm. Endless other examples in the same vein.

Vertical clearance is the obvious one but side and longitudinal clearance can also be important.

Looking at the ArcEurotrade website **LINK**

https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Workholding/Machine-Vices

The two, readily available new, vice styles of interest for general use are the ordinary screw operated ones and what Arc call the precision vice type 2.

The screw operated ones have less opening for any given jaw width and body size than the precision ones because the moving jaw base needs to be quite long for accurate movement and stability.

The precision type is tightened by an angled socket head screw pulling the moving jaw forwards and downwards making it very stable at the cost of limited travel. So the nut underneath has to be arranges so it can take up a number of positions giving coarse adjustment. Which is not only less convenient than a single long screw but also frustrating when you set them coarse position wrong and have to move the nut before the vice will tighten up.

The precision vices are expensive due to being well made and ground all over so they can be used turned on their side if need be. Affordability is a relatively recent thing. Back in the day such were purely industrial market devices and priced accordingly as the modular vices originally designed for CNC work still are. Although import prices are creeping down into merely painful territory.

The shallowest, relatively findable, type of vice is the industrial style originally introduced by Taylor having a free sliding moveable jaw clamped by a screw in a sort of Y shaped assembly engaging with rack teeth on the top of the vice base. Strong and durable but now seriously obsolete for industrial use they often appear on E-Bay, Facebook et al for reasonable money. The primary installation disadvantage being jaws much narrower than the base.

As ever it's a matter of making a, hopefully informed, decision to pick the best compromise of advantages and disadvantage that can reasonably be afforded. Many folk have found that a smaller, more affordable vice, supplemented by clamps and sacrificial plates to hold oversize work directly on the mill table to be an effective compromise. Disciplined use of the travel stops being important to preserve the table top surface.

The two piece endless vices, whether bought or shop made, can be an effective way of holding oversize jobs too. Tend to be too expensive or need too much work to make unless you really need them tho'.

Clive

Edited By Clive Foster on 11/06/2023 17:43:04

Welcome to the forum, I would look at the Arc Euro site for some cutters and suitable holders. Also, you would do better to practice using some aluminium barstock,square or round. This will not tend to damage the cutters if you make a mistake. The aluminium will need a slight lubrication from something like WD40 to prevent it sticking to the cutting edges. Steel will also need slight lubrication with a tiny ammount of oil, tapping fluid would do to extend the cutter life. There are several good online sources of practical help, as you have found, some can be very advanced.

You do need to rock the Emcomat8.4 lead screw handwheel back and forth as you push and pull the speed selector to make the gears line up, if you don't do that you may not be fully engaging the gear. I used to have an 8.6

The versatile vices on ARC's site can actually hold larger items than the precision type by reconfiguring the jaw positions, the FB2 is unlikely to be able to take large enough cuts to worry about the force pulling work out of the shallower gripping area so don't rule them out on size of opening, 80mm jaw width one would do on the FB2. Put the swivel base under the bench and make use of the premachined location slots for quick and easy set up of the vice

As for cutters to get started I would suggest 3-flute as they are good all rounders, say 6 & 10mm to get you going either ARC Premium or those done by APT in HSS to start with. If you are going to be doing a lot of work with aluminium and other non ferrous metals then worth getting the geometry specific ones again in HSS from ARC or APT but move upto carbide on these as soon as you have the hang of things in which case I would also go for the 3-flute option, you are never going to be removing the volume of material that the 2-flute ones allow with a 2000rpm top speed

As for a Chamfer cutter, these ones work OK and you can also use them as a spotting drill and small countersink, I would say 6mm to start with.

For surfacing at one time I would have said use a fly cutter but these days I think an indexable face/shell mill is the way to go BUT use it with inserts designed for aluminium/non ferrous on ALL metals as this puts a lot less strain on the smaller hobby machines. 40 or 50mm one of these and an arbor in MT2 size and this type of insert for all.

You don't say what if anything came with the machine to hold the cutters, don't use a drill chuck.

Edited By JasonB on 11/06/2023 19:15:14

Thanks Clive thats very helpful.

Thanks Jason I will send pics shortly of the extras.

Jason

Thanks for pointing out the extra capacity obtained by reconfiguring the jaw plates on the Arc Versatile vices. Something I always forget about.

Mostly because I've been driving a Bridgeport for the last 20 odd years so the shallow gripping surfaces after re-configuration appear woefully inadequate when you have a 2 hp motor driving things. Totally lost touch with how the definition of adequate differs for smaller machines!

Is this just an Arc feature or do some other breeds both have it and are made with sufficiently good quality control for it to be safe to use. The flatness and anti-lift demands on the moving jaw would seem to be quite stringent when the jaw plate is fitted at the handle end.

My precision vices generally get used sat on their sides.

Clive

Standard on Kurt vices, although thus far I've never needed to use the feature.

Andrew

Well I had the same question as you, and started by grinding HSS blanks, which was a usefull experience trying to understand cutting on the lathe and it will be usefull to have in case you need a special shaped grind. The end is I end up with indexable quality inserts which lasted way longer than the cheap chinese ones I bought after HSS. Same for mill, so far I have not reverted back to HSS or cheaper inserts.

Th versatile is really just a copy of the Kurt D series vice so every man and his dog who sells that has likely included the additional jaw positions. I've only measured for lift or lack of in the usual configuration but a syou say if they were not put together reasonably well there may be so lift.

When you want to arrive at a feed rate for your milling cutter, the required cutting speed speed for a particular material will be a product of the cutter diameter and machine rotational speed.

The theoretical numbers cannot always be achieved.

For feed, think in terms of "cut per tooth" A round figure for a starting point is likely to be 0.025 mm ().002" ) per tooth.. In this way for a given rotation speed, and the number of teeth on nthe cutter, the feed rate can be calculated.

Ultimately, this all will oiverridden by the machine and the wear and gib adjusments. What is theoretically correct may be imposible with a light machine or one that is badly worn or adjusted.

These things can be a guide, but depend on invidual circumstances.

Howard

0.025mm is approx 0.001"

Thanks Jason.

Should have engaged brain before typing!

Should have said 0.05 mm / tooth.

Howard