What Vice should I buy (2019)

Every year or two someone asks which vice the should they buy, which generates the usual rash of opinion and advice. It's been a couple of years and I think I want a vice, so this post.

Recently (other threads) I acquired a new mill. It biggish - 820x210 table (an Amadeal VM32L - much like a WM18 in size).

So my first question is what size vice makes sense? Currently I have a 2 inch machine vice and a 3 inch RDGTools vice which looked big on my CMD10 and a bit silly on the new mill.

I'm thinking that 5 or 6 inches (125/150mm) is about right. 8 inches seems excessive (oh ah, vicar...).

Now, In previews posts people either had a vice which was very accurate or used a lead hammer. Sometimes both. What weight should the hammer be for a machine of this size? Can you use other mallets? Wood/Rubber?

Then I wonder about new (Chinese) vs second hand. My first problem is that the second hand vices cost almost as much as a mill - and some of them look pretty ragged. Does a 10 (20/30) year old vice retain it's accuracy?

The previous posts mainly talked about the Kurt vice (which costs more than many mills) and Kurt clones. Apparently (in 2017) ARC were about to take on a Kurt clone which I think is the 'versatile milling vice'.

And then there are the hundreds of 'acculock' vices on eBay - which I guess are Kurt clones of various qualities?

And as far as I can tell there is no machine vice made which isn't 'precision' - regardless of quality!

My budget for this is £100 (or less) which puts most of the options out of scope. Is it worth applying several months of budget to a vice? What will I really see as a difference in my machining? Should I just buy a cheap (ish) vice and lead hammer.

In anticipation of many conflicting responses ...

Iain

I'm saying nowt after previous excoriation.

Andrew

If it would suit your way of working ... I still have these available:

... The ‘book-ends, not the Beanz !!

More pics here: 

https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/albums/member_album.asp?a=40600

Some surface rusting from storage, but they are unused ... too big for my machine

.

MichaelG. [P.M. me if you are interested]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 11/01/2020 20:00:51

Oh - I Meant to say that the eBay 'acculock' vices all say that they are good for fitters and for holding work whilst you chisel...

Doesn't sound like something I want on my mill, though I think this is probably the work of a copywriter who thinks a mill makes flour (as does most of my wife's friends, it seems).

Andrew - I seem to recall you were a Kurt fine and bought a real one in back in the dark ages and it had never let you down. We're all jealous...

Iain

I've been using one of the 80mm versatile ones from ARC on the CNC and it seems to be behaving itself so far, if I do feel the need to tap a workpiece down then I prefer a copper/hide one from Thor.

This style of vice does have quite a large footprint even without the swivel base (only use it when needed) and even the 100mm versatile feels a bit big on my X3 compared to the Vertex 4" that I usually use but may be about right on your larger table if not the 125mm should do. They do open quite a bit further than the same size Vertex ones which is also handy.

J

PS Michael, shame the beans have gone as I may have been interested in a deal for the lot.

Iain

Having looked at your mill on the other thread ...

I’m sure my book-ends are too big and and heavy for it.

MichaelG.

No point in discussing a real Kurt or similar when the budget is £100 or less!

Whether a second-hand vice will do the job or depends entirely on condition, Bear in mind a vice is likely to have had a hard life: some chaps like to ensure good grip by tightening up with a hammer. Inspection required unless taking a punt is all part of the fun.

I suggest putting a sooper-dooper vice on an mill of the WM18 type is probably a waste of money because the mill is rather bendy. (I have one!) Driven within its envelope the mill does the job, but it doesn't benefit particularly from a big money vice. Not sure I could get value for money out of a £500+ vice - I would need to use it much more than I have call for. All I need is a pair of jaws that don't lift, about 150mm wide, at right angles, with a flat base that doesn't rock or bend. My first vice was a Far Eastern simplified Kurt-style on a turntable: it works best without the turn-table. I eventually replaced it with a DH1 because the DH1 has more grip options that simplify and speed work-holding: it's not 'better' in the sense it's marvellously more accurate or has fantastic grip. Never had a problem with a job I could blame on either vice.

Three types to avoid: very cheap vices, drill-vices, and tilting vices. Actually I'm not dead against tilting vices provided there's a specific need, but they have too many unstable swivelling features for general purpose work.

If a small rubber mallet doesn't move a vice into alignment, hit it harder or go next size up. On a WM18 size machine, the mallet shouldn't be a problem unless the vice is oversized.

Dave

I needed a bigger vise a year or two ago and got one of ARC's 5" with the swivel base. It opens a lot wider than the 100mm Bisons normally used and it works fine without the swivel base, which can come in handy occasionally. ARC also do a line of higher quality SG iron vises.

I would look at the 150mm / 6" sizes bearing in mind the capacity, and the weight, which rises quickly with size. 

Looking at your budget, the ARC 125mm vise which opens to 150mm is slightly above, but you might be able to stretch that far, it is the same as mine, the jaw lift is less than most, a lead hammer would probably not be needed, I have never regretted buying mine.

Edited By old mart on 11/01/2020 21:26:23

A pair of vices can be useful rather than a single very big vice, a large heavy parallel is handy for setting and trueing them.

Mike

Over 20 or so years ago I bought a pair of then current version of these Vertex VJ400 110 mm wide by 180 mm opening vices from Rotagrip **LINK** . About £70 - £80 each then. Imperial dimensions too!

I have been very, very happy with them. The extra opening capacity compared to a normal machine vice has been very useful. Far as I can see they are the economy version of a hydraulic vice. A screw being cheaper.

Great thing is that they have three position for the nut allowing them to offer a much wider range of opening than the usual style of machine vice. Simply pull a pin out, wind the nut along and replace it to change positions. Openings are 60 mm, 120 mm and 180 mm nominal. Possibly not quite as rigid as a good Kurt or quality Acculoc copy but I've had no significant issues although, for obvious reasons you do have to be a bit more careful at full extension, I use the 60 & 120 mm positions mostly.

Initially used on a mill of similar size to Ians' Amadeal but I was always goring to move up to a Bridgeport eventually (5 years later actually) so I grabbed two at the show offer price.

For really serious holding I have a (now) excellent 6" jaw Abwood which cost very little and responded well to a careful re-furb. Comes out about once every 5 years or so! Its heavy.

Clive

I bought the 125mm version of the ARC Versatile Milling Vice back in the middle of last year for my SX4. It fitted the bill and is pretty much in the budget. When I got it home I removed the rotary base and found it wasn't parallel between the face the jaw moves on and the base by about 0.1mm. I skimmed it up on my newly set up mill and got the base to within 0.02mm easily enough which is good enough for my needs. Having used it for a while workpieces do need a tap down (and only a tap or two but that may be habit) and overall I think its a good vice for the money.

Ditto for the Arc versatile vice with swivel base. I've got the 4" version. Good clone of a Kurt, excellent value for money and holds work accurately and securely. The swivel base has been used once in three years, makes a good cabinet weight most of the time. I use a Thor number 2 if anything needs bashing down.

Phil.

"So my first question is what size vice makes sense? Currently I have a 2 inch machine vice and a 3 inch RDGTools vice which looked big on my CMD10 and a bit silly on the new mill."

What does it matter what it looks like? Why not see how you get on with these and consider a larger vice when you need it? I've been milling for quite a long time and probably 70 or 80 % of the work I do I either clamp direct to the table or to an angle plate. A large vice clutters the table and eats daylight under the spindle.

I do have a 100 mm vice for my Myford VMB, which came with the swivel base. I don't think I've ever used the latter! I also have a little old-style Myford vice and a small one that I bought for a vertical slide (never used) from Chronos - it was a pig's ear as supplied though looked nice, ground all over. After re-machining it and making a new moving jaw it's OK. The latter two I find really useful on the VMB and my Novamill.

Bigger is not necessarily better!

You asked for advice - so here goes .......

If it were me, I'd go for a 100mm versatile vice from Arc, like this.

I originally bought the larger one for my mill ( a Warco VMC ) and nearly crippled myself lifting it onto the table. Toute suite, I took it back and swapped it for the 100mm version. It's well built, accurate as far as I can tell, and suits my purpose well. I'd go along with the others, too and suggest that you avoid the ones with swivel bases and gain a bit more airspace.

John

P.S.  Forgot to mention - the relocatable jaw function adds exrtra versatility as well.  Hence the name, I guess!

Edited By John Hinkley on 12/01/2020 10:12:43

I have a 80mm ARC versatile which I am really pleased with, great value for money. I have the swivel base removed but I have used it a couple of times. You certainly need to consider the size of vice, surprising how big a lump they are relative to the jaw size.

Correct, and it obviously pissed off some members. The 'practicalmachinist' website has strict guidelines that you're not allowed to mention hobby machine tools. May be this forum should have the reverse; you're not allowed to discuss industrial machine tools and accessories.

I use a nylon faced mallet for tapping down work.

Andrew

As you already have vices take Johns advice and use them for a while keeping notes of the sort of jobs where they prove inadequate. Then go out and buy what you need either as a replacement or supplement.

Do remember that your machining and set-up style evolves in conjunction with your equipment and the jobs that you do. I didn't have a properly useable machine vice when I bought my Vertexes. Just the rather sad Abwood and a Nippy drilling vice. Over the years I've learned to make best use of the Vertex pair. If I had different equipment I'd probably do things differently. I suspect that if I'd had a smaller vice or two, like yours, a two piece style, like the castings in MichaelGs' picture would have been next on the shopping list. Would have been doing rather more work clamped to the table too so appropriate tooling for that would have been needed. A time expired 4 jaw chuck arranged to lay flat on the table might well have been on the list too.

Do consider the weight issue. Big vices are heavy and correspondingly hard to handle. (My back muscles have spasmed and locked up tight for the past couple of days. More than a little uncomfortable so I'm really not going to forget about that.) One reason for getting my pair was that I was having serious doubts over manhandling the 6" Abwood after I'd finished re-furbishing it. Couple that with a show offer and the rest is history.

In my experience, for folk like us, the extra jaw width of a 6" / 150 mm vice when compared to a 4" / 110 mm is of little benefit. Its the wider opening where the bigger vice scores as most vice capacity is "square" where opening equals jaw width. A 4" can be really limiting if you need a support or holder in the vice jaw as well as the work, eg a Vee block to hold a round part vertical.

Clive

Edited By Clive Foster on 12/01/2020 10:39:00

Edited By Clive Foster on 12/01/2020 10:39:47

Sad to say, that the very good Vertex vises have increased in price in the last few years and are well above the op's budget.

At the museum we have the ARC 125 versatile with the rotary base, and a pair of Bison 100mm, one of which came with the drill mill and the other which I bought new with a rotary base for much less than the list price, 1/5 in fact. They do suffer with the jaw lift problem by design, although it is possible to tighten them up to reduce the problem. We also inherited an apprentice made vise which although beautifully made, has the design shortcoming leading to jaw lift. 

As Clive Foster says, the advantage of a bigger vise is also the wider jaw opening, I bought the ARC 125 when confronted by the need for more than the 75mm opening of the Bisons and the extra size coupled by a different design doubled the opening.

Edited By old mart on 12/01/2020 16:52:50

I did post this chart a couple of years ago where I measured front and rear jaw lift and front and rear work lift, think it was a 2" wide workpiece.

As you can see the Vertex had the most, ARC versatile only 0.0001" or 2 microns and the ARC "Precision" no measurable lift

I just took a look at the specs for the 160mm versatile. 30 kilos!

Clive/Jim - I entirely see your point...

I have ordered a Thor No 2 from Amazon and will try this out with my 3 inch RDG vice next time I need to use it.

In the meantime, I've had some success with a superglue wax chuck on a plate I made (**LINK**) which has worked quite well - better than I expected, though I'm having a bit of trouble cleaning the superglue off. Acetone is on the way.

That was tidying up a piece of 100x130 bar to use as the bottom cylinder plate of my vertical engine - which worked really well and then I realised I'd changed the design since I bought the piece and it was, in fact too thin (6mm not 10mm).

I notice that no-one has commented on the eBay acculocks? Does anyone have one of these?

So I think I'm going to pause for a while and see how things go. Can I tap down in the 3 inch? As other posters have stated most of my work so far hasn't used vices, but secured to the bed (or an angle plate of some kind - 20-40-80 Stevenson's blocks were one of my better purchases).

Thanks all.

Iain