By continuing to use this site, you agree to our use of cookies. Find out more
Forum sponsored by:
Forum sponsored by Forum House Ad Zone

Silver Soldering Inverness or Elgin way

All Topics | Latest Posts

Search for:  in Thread Title in  
Carl Wilson 428/05/2017 14:57:01
avatar
670 forum posts
53 photos
I've been reading the silver Soldering article in MEW and enjoying it as well as learning. I think it would be a good process for me to learn as it could solve a few problems for me. I'm generally tig welding most things.

Wondered if there is anyone in the Inverness or Elgin area with the kit that would be kind enough to consider letting me have a go, and show me the ropes. That would be an easier way to get a good handle on how the process could work out for me and what gear I would need. I'm a monkey see monkey do type.

Thank in advance

Carl.
Speedy Builder528/05/2017 15:29:23
2878 forum posts
248 photos

Hi Carl, can you soft solder plumbing fittings? If you can, then silver solder follows much the same. Surfaces should be clean, flame should be hot enough to get the part(s) to dull red heat. Just to try it out, buy a length of silver solder and packet of flux. for examples look here **LINK**
Buy a small gas blow lamp from B&Q, SCREWFIX, whoever you like - nothing too expensive, borrow your neighbour's perhaps. Now experiment with small parts, Silver solder a 1/4" copper tube into a bit of brass plate with a 1/4" hole drilled into it. You will see just how easy it is.
If you want to make a boiler, that is a very different kettle of fish. Experiment and learn from your mistakes. Not too much heat, but just enough. Every job is different. Get a bit of fire brick or thermalite block. See how you can conserve heat by using these.
If there is someone nearby all the good, but I would just do it.
BobH (Ex Turriff)

Carl Wilson 428/05/2017 17:15:03
avatar
670 forum posts
53 photos
Fair comment and thanks for the advice. What I was thinking was that in learning any new technique there are all the little tricks and bits of know how that you learn over time. Usually a long time. So I was hoping to have someone show me and thereby speed up the whole thing.
Neil Wyatt28/05/2017 19:27:43
avatar
19226 forum posts
749 photos
86 articles

I was wondering what the difference is between the 'Inverness' and 'Elgin' techniques?

Is this like the 'West Lothian' question?

Neil

Keith Hale29/05/2017 10:03:32
avatar
334 forum posts
1 photos

Hi Carl

Two thoughts.

Firstly

get to understand the principle of silver soldering - capilllary flow.What to do, why and how. Visit **LINK**

There is a short video clip to help you.

Secondly

there is a separate video going into more detail about the principles and how it relates to boiler manufacture. The best of both worlds. Good technical advice and a demo from a true professional Helen Stait of Western Steam.

But for help at any time call us on 01909 547248

Regards

Keith.

Carl Wilson 429/05/2017 10:30:48
avatar
670 forum posts
53 photos
Thank you for that interesting info. The thing I want to solder is not unlike a boiler in principle. Except that it is made up of a series of aluminium tubes. It can be thought of as a type of heat exchanger.

I was and may still tig weld this assembly. The two issues with this are as follows:-

Aluminium is weakened in the Haz after welding, though I have processes to deal with this.

Some of the tubes are quite small and so the welding is going to be "interesting".

So you can see why silver Soldering looks attractive. There are other issues that may rule it out like mechanical strength at elevated temperatures, but this is a preliminary investigation.
roy entwistle29/05/2017 10:37:27
1716 forum posts

I think I am right in saying that you cannot silver solder aluminium

I believe it can be soft soldered using special fluxes and alloys

Roy

Edited By roy entwistle on 29/05/2017 10:42:45

Carl Wilson 429/05/2017 10:56:57
avatar
670 forum posts
53 photos
Thanks Roy - would that be due to the process temperature required or some other reason? Just reading that brazing is up at 610 degree C, similar or at aluminium melting point.

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 29/05/2017 10:58:31

Neil Wyatt29/05/2017 11:06:11
avatar
19226 forum posts
749 photos
86 articles
Posted by Carl Wilson 4 on 29/05/2017 10:56:57:
Thanks Roy - would that be due to the process temperature required or some other reason? Just reading that brazing is up at 610 degree C, similar or at aluminium melting point.

Yep, silver soldering becomes 'alloying' when attempted with aluminium

Neil

Roderick Jenkins29/05/2017 11:44:05
avatar
2376 forum posts
800 photos
Posted by Carl Wilson 4 on 29/05/2017 10:30:48:
Thank you for that interesting info. The thing I want to solder is not unlike a boiler in principle. Except that it is made up of a series of aluminium tubes. It can be thought of as a type of heat exchanger.

I was and may still tig weld this assembly. The two issues with this are as follows:-

Aluminium is weakened in the Haz after welding, though I have processes to deal with this.

Some of the tubes are quite small and so the welding is going to be "interesting".

So you can see why silver Soldering looks attractive. There are other issues that may rule it out like mechanical strength at elevated temperatures, but this is a preliminary investigation.

In that case HTS2000 may be the stuff to use. I'very been impressed with it.

HTH,

Rod

Edited By Roderick Jenkins on 29/05/2017 11:45:31

Carl Wilson 429/05/2017 16:39:34
avatar
670 forum posts
53 photos
Interesting stuff this HTS2000. Seen similar before. Only niggle is can never seem to find any definitive mechanical and physical properties for it, or a composition. What I am building is also a pressure vessel so I need to know the properties for certain.

Carl Wilson 429/05/2017 16:47:57
avatar
670 forum posts
53 photos
Well the website reckons a uts of 45900psi, which is 316MPa. This is about the same as 6082. Reckon I might have to get some and do some joints then pull them apart....
George Clarihew29/05/2017 20:36:51
80 forum posts
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 28/05/2017 19:27:43:

I was wondering what the difference is between the 'Inverness' and 'Elgin' techniques?

Is this like the 'West Lothian' question?

Neil

Nivvir min, Inverness technique is in the Gaelic and Elgin technique is in Doric spik.

Edited By George Clarihew on 29/05/2017 20:37:12

Keith Hale30/05/2017 08:55:49
avatar
334 forum posts
1 photos
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 29/05/2017 11:06:11:.

Yep, silver soldering becomes 'alloying' when attempted with aluminium

??????????????

Keith

Carl Wilson 430/05/2017 09:15:28
avatar
670 forum posts
53 photos
The row of question marks suggests you don't agree with Neil's assertion, Keith. What is your take? Does the oxide layer on aluminium have any effect?

While we are about it, I have had a little bit of exposure to Tig brazing, using either bronze or aluminium bronze rods. I concluded that I needed more practice. I think that with a gas torch ie mapp or the like it would be a struggle to get an aluminium assembly up to temperature. It conducts heat away so well. I know from my tig welding the amount of energy in the form of current that is required to melt it.

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 30/05/2017 09:19:23

JasonB30/05/2017 10:03:50
avatar
25215 forum posts
3105 photos
1 articles
Posted by Neil Wyatt on 29/05/2017 11:06:11:

Yep, silver soldering becomes 'alloying' when attempted with aluminium

Neil

I think Neil was suggesting that it will all melt into a messy lump hence the winky

To silver solder you need to get the actual parts upto a temp of at least the melting point of the solder so that would mean getting the ali upto 650+deg, it may not flow but would start to sag and distort.

Edited By JasonB on 30/05/2017 10:06:18

Carl Wilson 430/05/2017 10:14:10
avatar
670 forum posts
53 photos
Bit if a non starter in that case.
roy entwistle30/05/2017 16:12:48
1716 forum posts

Perhaps Keith from Cup Alloys would explain why aluminium can't be silver soldered ( Or if it can, how )

Roy

Carl Wilson 430/05/2017 16:15:56
avatar
670 forum posts
53 photos
I'm sure he can. My feeling is the the very high thermal conductivity would make things difficult to get the workpiece up to temperature.
Mike Poole30/05/2017 16:18:10
avatar
3676 forum posts
82 photos

Would the melting point of aluminium and silver solder being similar be a problem ?

Mike

All Topics | Latest Posts

Please login to post a reply.

Magazine Locator

Want the latest issue of Model Engineer or Model Engineers' Workshop? Use our magazine locator links to find your nearest stockist!

Find Model Engineer & Model Engineers' Workshop

Sign up to our Newsletter

Sign up to our newsletter and get a free digital issue.

You can unsubscribe at anytime. View our privacy policy at www.mortons.co.uk/privacy

Latest Forum Posts
Support Our Partners
cowells
Sarik
MERIDIENNE EXHIBITIONS LTD
Subscription Offer

Latest "For Sale" Ads
Latest "Wanted" Ads
Get In Touch!

Do you want to contact the Model Engineer and Model Engineers' Workshop team?

You can contact us by phone, mail or email about the magazines including becoming a contributor, submitting reader's letters or making queries about articles. You can also get in touch about this website, advertising or other general issues.

Click THIS LINK for full contact details.

For subscription issues please see THIS LINK.

Digital Back Issues

Social Media online

'Like' us on Facebook
Follow us on Facebook

Follow us on Twitter
 Twitter Logo

Pin us on Pinterest

 

Donate

donate