Unknown Swiss milling machine

I have the opportunity to buy a Swiss milling machine, the only manufacture's mark is 'TN Le Locle'. Le Locle is just over the border from France and is home to high quality engineering firms, including Le Tissot watches, but googling 'TN' yields nothing except a 2013 advert for a TN machine very like the one I have in mind but clearly newer. This one has a pantograph attachment and was advertised for approx. £3500. 'Mine', so to speak, was also used with a pantograph, oddly enough. It is obviously a very heavy, high quality machine (allegedly not advisable even for two men to try to lift it into an estate car), not much used apparently except for the pantograph, probably mid 20th century I would say, at a guess. Does anyone know anything about this make? What worries me is the likely difficulty of finding collets, draw bars etc etc for it. I am extremely ignorant where milling machines are concerned, so perhaps someone could tell me whether continental chucks will take UK collets etc. Or can the chuck simply be changed? Different threads? I don't know exactly what comes with the machine, apart from a very heavy looking vice, and probably not much else, and the present owner is not contactable for a while, hence my plea here. Obviously I like the idea of Swiss quality for the same money as a Chester Mini milling machine.

Aciera were made at Le-Crêt-du-Locle , reference :- http://www.lathes.co.uk/aciera/index.html

Frank

Roger,

Is it something like this ?

MichaelG.

I think that you have first got to identify exactly what sort of taper / collets it has. From that you can look into how much and how rare they are. If it takes a fairly common collet then Ebay is your friend if not can you buy / make an adapter to say 2 morse taper. Although a homemade adapter is going to lose you some accuracy, you should still be well above that which you would get from a "Chester mini milling machine".

If the machine is in good order then I would definitely get it. Used Swiss machinery in good order holds its value very well and is delightful to use. As long as you can get up and running (a morse taper adapter) then you can take the time to find any rare bits at the right price. An upside to very rare collets is that the people who can correctly identify them are also pretty rare, so they can turn up for peanuts if you can wait.

Good luck.

David

Frank - thank you for this information, not least because it has indirectly put me onto something called Swissmachines, who might know about older marques.

Michael - yes, that is exactly the advert to which I referred. The quality of the stand, T grooved table, handles, etc look to be the same in the machine I'm interested in, but 'mine' has the motor mounted vertically at the top and it seems to be painted dark grey.

Still worried about finding chuck, collets etc to fit - forgot to ask the owner when we were in touch what came with the machine, but not much if the photo (no longer available) was anything to go by.

Roger

I think the OP had better download a photo of it and post it on here - assuming there is a photo where ever he has seen it. They usually can be downloaded.

There have been copy / die sinking millers that use a pantograph but it might just be an engraver. Far more likely actually.

John

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I think MichaelG's link clearly indicates that it is an engraver.

Isn't it annoying when you write a post based on those you can see, then when you add yours you find there are now some new ones in front of it which make your's redundant .

The problem with the photo is that it has disappeared, along with the original advert, which the owner very decently withdrew when I expressed my interest and likely intention to purchase (no money has passed, however). It was anyway rather a murky photo.

Do I understand correctly that the machine I am pursuing is not a true milling machine but one capable only of engraving? I am getting a bit confused now, as all you kind folks will see. Grateful for enlightenment.

Perhaps I should add, if it is not abundantly clear already, that I am a novice machinist (much happier with wood, though still not very skilled) and that I am now looking for machines to use at home because the school where I used to teach has decided that it will no longer allow ex-teachers the use of its workshop one or two hours a week, when pupils aren't there anyway, which was a pleasant and harmless concession whilst it lasted. I had been using the school lathe, miller, and other tools mainly to make bits and pieces in aluminium for my small bore target rifles, target shooting being one of my new activities in retirement. (I also have my eye on a very nice Meddings pillar drill. Pity that it won't be up to milling, as I am told.)

Roger,

This may, or may not, be true for you ... BUT

If the slides are good, it would only take a heartbeat for me to decide to buy it.

... if needs be, I would just replace the head with something more convenient.

The build-quality will almost certainly be astonishingly good.

HOWEVER, if anything serious is worn or damaged, you are unlikely to find [or afford] the spares.

MichaelG.

Most of the Eurpean Engravers I have come across have collet fixing and no taper arbor. Nominally 4 mm or 6 mm if i recall. Taylor Hobson is a Taper fit but Alexander is a parallel tool fitting. Another one I used in Germany was a 3 dimensional engraver and it also had parallel tool fitting as it was used to hob out die casting pots for shoe soles and handles.

Clive

Edited By Clive Hartland on 23/08/2015 11:11:14

Really

Edited By John W1 on 23/08/2015 11:07:44

I'm very grateful to all those that have responded to my request. What a helpful forum this is. Plenty of good advice and leads have been given. I'll report back when I am in a position to do so. Apologies for the absence of photos. Maybe that can be rectified in due course.

Michael - I'll put you in touch with the machine's owner if I feel I cannot go through with a purchase, though I must say at the moment you have somewhat encouraged me to go ahead. Forgot to mention that the machine is 3 phase but that shouldn't be insuperable for us 240 volters, esp. as there is a single phase motor with it, though apparently its key doesn't quite fit IIRC.

Roger

Thanks, Roger ... very decent of you

There is a 'Message member' link at the bottom of each Post.

MichaelG.

If it's an engraver similar to the photo Michael posted it will need rather a lot of work to convert it to a miller. Notice the rather narrow belt driving the cutter head for instance. The actual cutter head is likely to be unsuitable as well.

John

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Yes, I'm sure that would be the case and totally off-putting. However, so far as I can remember the photo it showed a conventional set up with the shaft and head poised over the middle of the table, ready for action, and no sign of all the sophisticated gubbins that the machine in the advert possesses. What I was told about 'my' machine having being used as a pantograph may prove to be a red herring, but I'm glad to have been alerted to the possibility that it is not going to be a practical proposition.

Using an engraving machine in a milling capacity is only possible if you are cutting through thin Alu. or plastic sheet. To actually use a milling cutter sets up terrific vibration as it has to have the speed reduce to about a 1000rpm. The pantograph is subject to enormous strain and tends to flex a bit and is difficult to fix in one position, It is possible to hold it in a clamp. The maximum size of cutter is approx. 4 to 5 mm. It is better to use it as a pantograph machine to cut out small sections of sheet/shapes. rather than using the table movement to traverse the work against the tool. Obviously intricate shapes can be cut out with a master to follow. As its main function is for letter/symbol engraving then that is the best use for the engraver. Sets of engraving letters and styles are very expensive ( Circa £200 per set) This depending on the size of the letter.

Clive

I did have a taylor hobson at one point with the idea of just using the main castings - never happened, way too many problems.

I'm not connected in any way but there is a rather nice Tom Senior in the classified's. I was very interested in the Boxford that can be seen in the background. Very excited in fact and then suddenly realised that I would need a whole set of change wheels to go with it. I didn't realise until I had returned from looking at it and suddenly thought that there were not enough knobs.

Sounds like the miller would be out of Roger's price range though.

I feel I should add that while Swiss machines may be well made they wear out just like any other make or source does. I'm often gob smacked by what people will pay for worn out Schaublins. I feel this makes life difficult when beginners are asking for advice on machines. I feel some would be better off with new and Chinese unless they can be very sure about what they are buying.

John

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Well, pantograph issue apparently settled after managing to speak again to the owner. It had a pantograph attachment only, presumably nothing like the complexity of the one in the French advert. No mention of engraving. It has a chuck and a draw bar but he will have to look for collets, he says.

I may just have to take the owner's word for the machine not having had a hard life. He says it was in a university design department, and in the end was only gathering dust. Sounds more encouraging at least than a workshop provenance.

There is no wear in this machine, it has hardly been used. It's the same as the green one that someone has linked in another post, although this is the original colour. It comes with the same pantograph attachment but unlike the other machine this also has a milling attachment. Machine weighs approx 150kg, As you can see from the scraped dovetails slides this machine is good quality.

Thanks to Roger's kindness, in remembering my enthusiasm for this machine, I am pleased to announce that l have purchased it from him.

It remains a bit of a mystery ... There will be questions !!

MichaelG.