Cylinder Boring Techniques for Steam Engines

Hi Clive and Alan,

I tried Reves but their pipe unions seem to be all imperial. After a bit of searching, metric pipe unions do seem to be available from http://www.dampfmodellbau-keifler.de/

I think you're maybe right re. the pipe threads. I don't mind the steam pipes being imperial but I'm trying to avoid taping imperial threads anywhere on the engine. Maybe I'm using the wrong approach?

Not many dragonfly here compared to last summer.

Will

Unless its an American engine in which case they love their threaded Maleable iron fittings.

And here is another site with metric (fine pitch) threaded fittings

J

Edited By JasonB on 27/08/2012 13:23:36

Hi Jason,

Thank you very much - that's exactly what I'm after.

Hi Michael,

Thank you very much as well. That is a very good point. I'll think it over in detail.

I know I must come across as someone who hates imperial. I've got a collection of farm engines (Lister D Type, Stuart Turner, Petter) which are all imperial and I love them to bits but I come from the metric generation so it's more intuitive for me for anything small and precise. Metric also keeps the number of taps and dies to a minimum (I can borrow more exotic ones when needed).

Will

@clive

Isn't hymenoptera membrane-wing? Lacewings are the delicate green things that come to a light at night.

I was startled by an orange underwing moth in my workshop today. Quite big, but not hawk moth sized. Also a darter dragonfly of some sort in the damp garden. I haven't seen any hornets this year, last year there were dozens on the windfall plums.

@will don't feel bad about it I think many of us are the last fully bilingual (metrc & imperial) generation.

Neil

Hello Neil, bees and the like are kept under the generic name Hymenoptera ( Lace wing)

You may be confusing the name Lace Wing with a type of insect that has that name, that insect is a benificial insect and eats Aphids. Its name is, 'Neuroptera'

Bees come under, 'Apis Mellifera'

Regards the Hornets, are you definatley seeing Hornets? or wasps.?

We are expecting an invasion of a large Hornet that has already reached the Northern shore of France and Spain, whether it will be able to cross the Channel is causing a lot of concern. Most of all to Bee Keepers as the Hornet will target the entrance of hives and kill bees as they come and go.

There is also a larger Hornet which I believe is the Asian Hornet whicch is also causing concern and in both cases if seen should be reported to the, Insect Identity, British Museum London, with a sample if possible. It is a case, 'When' not , 'If' as they can hitch rides in hibernation in pots of soil when plants are brought in from abroad. If they ever get here then they will be obvious as the are nearly 4 times the size of ordinary wasps and very distinctly colpured, yellow and black.

Clive

Will, I was not quite sure what you want, but stuff like that you can get almost literally just around the corner.

Have a look here. and search in the "Katalog"

Greetings, Hansrudolf

Hi Clive,

Worried to hear about the proximity of the hornets. How destructive are they to the bees?

Now that the metal stock is decided on I reckoned I'd start on the tooling. Please let me know if I've got anything wrong:

For milling the valve faces of the slide valve of the S50 and other general milling I reckoned a handful of HSS end mills **LINK** rather than the carbide end mills (10 times more expensive) **LINK**

For milling the block of scrap cast iron for the base plate will the HSS endmills be tough enough or should I fork out the extra cash for carbide? (Guessing that carbide endmills may be difficult to sharpen without a specialist stone.)

I'll just hold the endmills in the existing ER collets and collet chuck on the milling machine - that should easily be strong enough for light cuts (correct me if I'm wrong about any of this...).

I think there are enough parallels, mounting bolts, etc for the milling machine.

For boring Reboring tool IFANGER ASB Standard, cobalt **LINK** (let me know if this is appropriate or not - I may have misunderstood your recommendation)

Will

Hi Clive,

What did you think of my proposed choice of tools? Let me know if I've got everything right and correctly understood your advice on the Chrome boring (oops - "internal turning" tools. Also let me know if my guess re. endmills is right - I've never had access to a milling machine before so I'm guessing.

I'm not enjoying this choosing-of-tools-and-stock very much - it's too much like work! - but I know that I have to get it right before I can start the enjoyable part. Thank you very much for all your help and advice.

Knee has healed enough for me to walk with one crutch and walk short distances without crutches so I reckoned that it was safe for me to set foot in a machine shop again. (I reckoned that trying to hobble about a busy machine shop on crutches would have affected the safety of others.) I faced off that random lump of scrap brass and it turns beautifully - very confident that I can turn it to high precision and a good surface finish

Hi Hansrudolf

Thank you very much for the link. It's really good to know that there's a company like this nearby, I'll visit them as soon as I can.

Will

Hi Will , just noticed your posting, What dia bore are you doing? that would determine the type of boring tool size that you need.

I can extend my biggest boring tool about 3" from the tool holder, I would have to look to see which size it is. It is one of the tools with interchangeable heads. Its the bored length that worries me, your boring tool should be long enough to go right through the bore.

The milling cutters seem OK and should give a good finish to the job.

You can always lap the sliding faces on a piece of glass plate using a fine abrasive, rouge is good to finish off but then it laps itself to the other face anyway.

Re the Hornets, they will over a short period reduce the hive population considerably. The Hornets kill the bees and return to their nest to feed the larva and then more will follow.

The bees do have a defence and that is 'Balling', they bundle the hornet in a ball of bees and its temperature rises rapidly and it dies. But, bees die doing it.

One answer is to make the entrance just a small hole which is easily defended but this leaves bees at risk as they come into land and that is where the Hornets operate.

Another is a sheet of glass over the entarnce, the bees find their way past either side but a visiting Hornet will bounce off the glass.

We will have to see what happens if they do get over here, until then i will not worry.

Clive

Sorry Clive, I don't have the benefit of a classical education, but 'hymen' is definitely membrane, not 'lace' in Greek.

I'm 100% sure they are hornets - in my line of work, you pick yup afaier bit of entomology (I'm an ecologist/botanist by training).

I get 2 or 3 queens a year in my workshop (I nearly picked one up by accident last year). Here are pics of ordinary workers, one on a plum and one found dead on our doorstep. The plum photo is a bit poor, as I was surrounded by about two dozen at the time.

I once walked into a shed on a nature reserve used for storing tools, I heard a faint buzzing and turned round to see I had walked under a small hornet's nest. At 6' 2" I must have missed it by a hair's breadth. I walked out very slowly and they didn't show me any agression (I understand they sometimes react to CO2). From my several encounters with wasp nests, i think I was lucky it was relatively docile hornets!

Back on topic, Will, as Cluive says, sharp HSS will give a lovely finish on decent quality cast iron.

Neil

Hello Neil, had to look in my book of insects and your right, bees are Hymenoptera and Lacewing is a seperate genus. (Chrysoperla Carnea) Somehow I have got them together from somewhere.

I agree with you about the Hornets ( Vespa Crabro) but they are not the invasive Hornets expected from Europe. Very good predators but not to be encouraged around habitation. Kill the Queens that emerge in the Spring from hibernation and also when they come out to mate in the Autumn.

This year there is a very low incidence of common wasp, a few flying about and some damage to my plums on the tree. I have only caught at most 5 in my wasp trap.

Overall this year there has been a decrease in numbers of Bumble bees and Honey bees and Wasps. all down to the damp cold Spring.

When my Father was alive we would do wasp nests, him the lower ones , me, the ones in and on the roofs. Now you need a licence and insurance and the pesticide is exorbitantly expensive, no wonder they charge £80. per visit.

Clive

Edited By Clive Hartland on 01/09/2012 09:36:37

> Kill the Queens that emerge in the Spring from hibernation and also when they come out to mate in the Autumn.

Tsk! Tsk! I'm a dedicated hornet lover The queens seem to like hibernating in my workshop and sometimes wake up if I turn the heating up midwinter.

I suppose I even have a soft spot for wasps, although I have done stupid things like tread on one underground nest and put a fencepost into another.

Yes a poor year for many things, the dry winter promised excellent butterfly numbers, but the rain put an end to that.

Neil

Neil, I see wasps as complete nuisance as they harry the bees at the entrance to the hives. The bees guard the entrance to deter them and sometimes I have to reduce an entrance to a small slot.

Clive

Hi Clive,

Sorry I've been a bit quiet for a few days.

The lump of brass a friend gave me is 30mm diameter so after a bit of thought and discussion guessed at a 20mm diameter bore with a 30mm stroke. I think I can visualise the tool I need to buy but I'm just a little uncertain about the exact part number. I'll maybe look up some possible part numbers and post them before I buy.

The glass sounds an interresting way to help reduce the hornet problem. Hopefully they won't come to the UK though.

I used to think that rouge only worked on soft metals but over the last few days I've learned otherwise.

Hansrudolf very kindly showed me his workshop and took a lot of time explaining an enormous amount.

One thing I forgot to ask: If a metric thread is used for medels is a coarse or a fine metric thread usually used?

Will

Edited By Will Robertson on 04/09/2012 21:14:06

Will, I only use the standard series of Metric threads though I have a set of fine threads. As far as I can see there is no need to use the fine series for model work.

If there is any need for a special thread for some part I buy what I need, I had that recently when making the tool and cutter grinder, the thread was for the micrometer.

I will look at my boring tools tomorrow and try to see if there is a part number on the ones that will reach 30mm. I have a feeling it will be the one with the detacheable heads. Remember you will need a tool holder as well or use a mini 'V' block.

Glad you made contact and visited Hansrudolf and his workshop, he sounds a very experienced engineer.

Clive

First thanks for the nice words Will and Clive !

Clive, what you write might be correct for fasteners, but not for steam fittings. Remember that the ME threads (as used on Imperial fittings) are also much finer than Whitworth!!!.

I could insert a page from the Imech Catalog, but you know it's a nuisance to insert a screenshot here

Greetings, Hansrudolf

(P.S.: Will, I have a 20 mm reamer...)

Hi Clive and Hansrudolf,

Looks like a bit of a controversy - Imech insist that if metric threads are used for steam models fine metric threads should be used but Clive uses standard threads. I don't have a good enough understanding to have an informed view on the subject so I'm just confused.

Thanks for the offer of the 20mm reamer. There seems to be a significant debate in the steam community about whether cylinders should be reamed or bored. I eventually guessed that I should go for boring rather than reaming but that decision was the result of guesswork rather than informed consideration.

Will

Hi Clive and Hansrudolf,

Now for that boring tool...

The rebuilt S50 will have a cylinder of c. 16mm diamiter and my engine a cylinder of c. 20mm diamiter and c.30mm long. Then I guessed that a boring bar with a V shaped point would be best for a cylinder so that lead me to

Ausbohrstahl IFANGER ASB Standard, Kobalt 2

at the bottom of this page

**LINK**

Is that the right guess or have I got things wrong?

Will

Well, if you understand it THAT way what Clive wrote... he did not tell anything about fittings imho. Naturally you can use any thread you like, but you need more 'meat' in the fittings because the coarse threads are much deeper, and finally you have maybe only 3 or 4 turns in those short lengths. So take your choice. For a model with scale appearance the fittings should not be too clumsy.

The boring tool size 1 would be best for the dimensions you gave.

Greetings, Hansrudolf

Hi Will and Hansrudolf, I have looked at the tool sortiment and you have chosen the ASB style, where I think that the EDS head style is better for boring the cylinder.

The reason I say this is because the ASB is for roughing cut and the EDS is for fine finishing.

You will also need the Klemfutter KG1 which will take all the 8mm shank boring tools.

I agree the fine series threads are better for scale visually as the item can be smaller, an over sight on my part, sorry.

Clive