Falcor

HI PETE ... the top bronze block does not overhang the boiler end ... its position is not so critical as the lower block ... as shown the top block is flush with boiler end ... the lower block must clear the boiler end by a small amount ... otherwise when the actual gauge fitting shown in figure 18 is installed later in the build it may be difficult to fit a spanner without hitting the boiler end ... both the top block and the lower blocks are best fitted with high temperature silver flo 24 first.

The 2 temporary bolts can be removed once the S.F 24 has been used to "tack" the 2 blocks in place ... yes, the top block is a 9/16 cube ... mine was filed out of a piece of bronze bar about 0.75 dia.

martin

Martin

Im confused by the gas tank fig 21 has 6ba bushes at bottom and 1/4x40 bushes at top and one in the side.

Then fig 22 shows two alternatives for filler valve bushes is this a replacment for one of the top 1/4x40 bushes?

If it is and you do it this way the fill valve in fig 24 becomes redundant? as then will the vent valve in fig 25 because the venting is done through the gas filler?

In pic 16 there is a bush with nothing screwed in it that is not on any of the other drawings?

Presumably the distance between the two 6ba bushes in the gas tank bottom are non critical ive got about 0.75

From pic16 it looks as if the relationship between a line through the gas tank top and bottom bushes is about 90 deg but what is the relationship to the 1/4x40 bush in the side.

I dont want to end up with a bush against the side of the cab when it should be pointing inwards.

Regards

Pete

Martin

Hi - any advise on getting the pistons off the existing rods.

Are they screwed, locktited or both

Pete

Martin

Sorry its me again - am I the only one building this?

Fig 27 Front Frames

What height should the frame be on the left hand end?

Pete

I have no intention of building one right now, so much else to do....However given the number of errors that have crept in thus far I have a reluctance to purchase future issues based on my previous comment......

Martin

Sorry - further confusion of the main frame and front frame measurments. Fig26/27

The main frame is 8.5 long - the right hand 3 holes two of which are spotted through are 8.5-7.48 -.155 = 0.865 apart horizontally.

In fig 27 those 3 holes are shown as 0.840 apart.

Regards

Pete

Edited By Peter Russell 4 on 22/08/2018 10:57:56

HI PETE ... before you tie my brain in knots ... please can you tell me which sections of your loco are completed ??

Are you a very fast builder ? or are you studying all the plans in advance of building anything ??

With any project over the years I have always found it better to complete a particular section, and solve all the problems associated with that part whilst looking at the completed parts I have made ... that way I get a much better idea of what goes where.

For example, the boiler, is it finished ? have you had it pressure tested ?... not the steam test ... just the pressure or hydraulic test ... do you have a local model engineering society that can do the test ? ... If there is one nearby it might be worth joining so you can ask some questions of other people so that you can get more than one opinion ... I have always found it much easier to actually show somebody how something fits or, conversely, for them to show me something.

As regards the front frames and the main frames, do they exist please ? The height of the left end of the frames is not a critical measurement, about 7/8 will do.

There is a difference between the printed text and my original copy ... on page 290 of issue 4593, 4 lines up from the bottom the first word is "go" it should be "to" ... this could have caused some confusion if it was assumed that a slide was fitted adjacent to the valve.

martin

It will affect the height of the cylinders as the 10degree angle and the dimensions taken from that angled edge are all dependent on the height of the left hand end.

Martin

I am retired in my former life I was a building systems manager responcible for allmaintenance so effectively multi skilled as I covered any thing from security to blocked loos and everything in between that was not management.

I started to build a loco FC Judd I think when I was at school and got more detentions for wagging it off from lessons in the metalwork block.

I left it there when I left school as there was no prospect of ever having the tools and machinery to finish it.

As life went on and I retired I started to build a King G1 kit from a company in Walsall and have almost completed it.

But along the way there have been errors and omissions and ambiguity which have slowed it down.

So I thought I would give Falcor ago- any errors or foul up would be mine! and not need to rely on external sources to help.

Having said all that The main frames are complete, The boiler is started I have just silver soldered the water gauge and top 9/16 block on and they are now in pickle pot.

I have tried to get an answer from Roundhouse about the piston assembly but they have not answered me.

I am aware that if it is just locktite heat will undo it but if its threaded I don't want to damage the pistons.

The gas tank is started as basic bits ready for assembly and silver soldering.

As I find I need tools I order them and materials are ordered following each magazine issue that contains Falcor

Im trying to do as much as I can and if I get stuck pose a question and move on to another bit till I get an answer.

There is a difference between being told something is not critical and the history of this project having drawing office errors - how are we to differentiate?

Take the front frames that carry the cylinders as it is drawn in the magazine it is impossible to mark out and make without that dimension on the left side or a comment that it is not critical added to which the measurement "error" I queried adds to the confusion - this is not mean to be critical but im not into guess work and having to re make a part because I got it wrong.

I hope you can see where Im coming from.

Others have said they wont build it because of the errors Im not alone but having spent a lot of money in materials Im not giving in.

My workshop is 6ft x 6ft metal shed with a Mill just installed instead of a pillar drill and a mini lathe vice, brazing hearth. and spray hood.

Im capable of very fine work and have recently built a pendulum clock.

Hope this helps understand me and my aims

Regards

Pete

HI PETE ... my early years seem to be similar to yours ... I was using a soldering iron at 10 and silver-solder at about 13 or 14 ... first of all the piston and its rod ... carefully remove the O-rings ... the end of the piston rod was clamped in the vise ... using a thick leather glove for one hand I gently heated the piston on the assumption it was tight as well as loctited ... the piston was then removed by hand ... later In the proceedings the piston and its rod were put back together with a tight fit and some Loctite ... plus the glove.

There is an old saying about giving 6 people the same problem and possibly getting back 6 different answers ... I have my own saying ... "if it doesn't work, turn it through 90 degrees or reverse the whole idea" ... this is pinned on my workshop wall !! ... given the problem of aligning the cylinders, most people would drill the holes in the frames and try to fit the cylinders to the holes ... my method is the opposite ... I fit the cylinders to the frames and then drill the holes to match.

So, it is not an impossible scenario, it is just a different method of solving it ... there are several ways of accomplishing the fitting ... first of all study the Roundhouse cylinders ... mine have a total available travel of 0. 768 or just over 3/4 inch ... the cranks on the 2 axles are 5/16 throw and hence produce a total travel of 5/8 inch ... this leaves a spare amount of total travel = 0. 143 ... or, there is just over 1/16 inch space at each end of the cylinder ( 0. 071 inch)

I made a washer to match this thickness of 0. 071 with a 1/8 hole in its middle ... this washer was fitted on the piston rod adjacent to the piston and then re-assembled into each cylinder in turn .. place each of the front axle cranks at the rear away from the cylinders, make sure they stay there ... fit the con-rod on one side and then the other in turn ...pull the cylinder forward by hand with the washer inside it ... the cylinder can then be slid into position just behind the buffer beam so it is just clear ... using a scriber, each front frame can be marked round the cylinder base ... do the same for the other front frame in turn, some people may prefer to use a dab of epoxy resin to hold the cylinder ... the cylinder is now in its EXACT position to give exact amounts of clearance at each cylinder end ... this kills 2 birds with the same proverbial stone.

If the holes in the cylinder base are now measured and marked onto the front frames, they can be drilled and the cylinders can be trial fitted ... they should be pointing fairly accurately at the middle of the front axle. I ended up using a short Allen key as well as a long one.

Look at issue 4587, page 762, down near the bottom, the text says "the cylinders can be aimed directly at the centre of the axle" this is the easiest method of achieving the alignment that I can think of.

In the time I have taken to type the above I could have made the scribed marks round the 2 cylinder bases ... it is easier to do it than write it.

This is why I said the height of the front frames was not critical ... the top edge was cut and filed AFTER the cylinders were screwed in place.

I did not want to put all the above into the article in case I was detailing a problem that may not have arisen.

P. S. remember to remove the washer from the second cylinder when you have finished.

Keep calm and carry on, martin

Martin

Fig 1 and Fig 2 valve and piston forks - the dimensions dont add up.

I think the shown overall length of 0.30 and 0.318 are not overall lengths they should refer to the length of the square section and not include the turned down bit.

This is what I am going to go with as it very nearly replicates the removed valve fork if I do.

Pitty I made the new piston rods first as they are now too short.

I was calm and carrying on!

Pete

Hi Pete ... well done for sorting out the fork sizes in figure 1 and 2 ... it seems that 2 arrows have moved !!

As regards the length of the new piston rods ... if I understand you correctly, did your new piston rods bear some relationship to the Roundhouse rods?

An idea for the exact thickness washer if you were to do it by that method ... it would be quicker if it was made from a piece of 1/2 inch round brass bar ... after it has been parted off, cut or file from the edge to the middle so it is a "C" washer with a 1/8 slot to the middle ... remove all the burrs ... this would save some of the dismantling.

martin

Martin

What I meant was id made the piston rods using the dimensions as published in the forks which meant I cut them too short.

Ive made new ones but have not fitted the forks yet but they should be ok.

The fork drawings look a lot longer than those in your pictures but that's probably an inherent problem with the dimensions.

Just a couple of things for future - in the Figs for the new valve chest covers the 1/8 pipe length is given - It would be use full to have the same info ( not exact) for the other bits that have pipes soldered on.

Ive also made a change to the steam valve made from 1/4 hex with two 1/8 pipes off it.

As its drawn the 1/8x40 tapping in the body for the spindle is shown as right from the left hand edge . I have counter bored the end 1/8 and adjusted the spindle slightly so that the gland seal or O ring is running on plain spindle and not the thread which will shred the seal.

Your idea for C washers setting the pistons is good - Im cheating and using the ones that came with the other loco im building!

Regards

Pete

Martin

You advise bronze is better for the burner bar.

Would you give some insight into how you did this - I cant find tubing so must assume you drilled it from solid - some 4 inches with a 1mm wall .

If this is what you did I find that bronze heats up quickly when drilling and tends to bind on the drill also as the left side with the jet is drilled smaller how far down is it drilled 0.290 does it include the area where the air holes are.

From previous messages Im fairly confident Ive now sorted out the valves on the gas tank - I only want one because of the Ronson filler Im using- but there appears to be 3 6ba blind bushes 2 for fixing one for the heat shunt the position of which is not specified.

As per your "advise" ive gone back to page one and started making each piece as it is published and am now up to the frames and spacers.

Although im a maintenace engineer (retired) by trade I nearly fell into the trap of wall thickness on the 22mm fire tube - what you get from B&Q is only 0.9mm thick and it should be about 1.2mm can be found in short legnths on Ebay.

Regards

Pete

HI PETE ... your first message above ... it is very difficult to give an exact length for a piece of pipe with 2 or 3 bends in it ... why not go to your local plumbers merchant and buy a SMALL reel of plumbers solder, 3 mm in diameter ... I think the type with lead and tin is the cheapest ... this can be bent round your fingers and fitted into place to make a template for the copper pipe ... or you could bend it to shape and then straighten it out, then measure it to get a straight-line length ... whenever I do this I usually add 1/4 inch length to whatever I work out ... this excess can be slowly cut down to make everything fit properly.

The BRONZE burner tube ... yes you can use brass ... but over the years, mine made of bronze have lasted longer ... as regards the bronze rod ... is it straight ? try annealing it first, let it cool slowly ... to drill the actual hole down the length ... go in from each end to the middle ... do not force a large bit straight down the rod ... go up in 4 or 5 stages starting at about 1/8 inch ... how old are your drill bits ? to get a clean cut in bronze needs new, decent quality bits ... look at the flutes of the bits ... on the forward edge of each "flute" is a lumpy bit ... usually called a "land" ... this is the part that cuts going down the length of the bit ... if your drill bits are ancient, like most of mine, they will be blunt and cook gently trying to cut bronze ... buy some more of the larger needed sizes ... use some cutting oil to keep things as cool as possible. BE GENTLE, DO NOT RUSH !

The thread for the jet carrier can be 0.488 in length as in figure 19.

The bush for the heat shunt is shown in photo 16, about 2/3 up from the base, it is not critical, just make the heat shunt (photo 14) to join the burner rear to the tank, drill the hole in the heat shunt to make it all fit, AFTER you have made the bend ... there are many ways people would make the bend, all of which would slightly alter the dimensions needed.

The fire tube, as shown in figure16 ... this clearly shows the tube as 22mm plumbing pipe with a wall thickness of 0. 035 ... this is equal to 0. 9mm ... this wall is thicker than 0.6 or 0.7 mm that B and Q also sell / have sold.

Have you actually silver soldered the fire tube into place ? I cannot tell from your message above whether you have already used a piece of tube with a wall thickness of 1.2 mm ... if you have, then you may have changed the characteristics of the burner assembly !!

If it is already in place, then the brass collar shown in figure 19 will no longer fit ... with any of this type of poker burner, the size of the burner tube within the fire tube gets more critical as the two items get closer together ... the larger the fire tube the better ... smaller makes things more critical ... if this is the case then you may have to experiment with air-hole sizes, position, jet position etc ... your tubing with a wall thickness of 1. 2 mm will have reduced the internal diameter of the fire tube by about 12 or 13 thou. on each side ... you may get away with it, I do not know in advance.

P.S. any of the plumbers merchants where I live, will sell me a single length of copper pipe ... take a hacksaw or a tubing cutter with you and cut it in half to fit the car ... find other model engineers locally and see if someone else needs half a length of pipe.

martin

Martin at end of day im trying to produce a loco from your instructions allowing for drawing errors that is supposed to be for beginners. ie consise instructions.

What is presented is far from a beginners artical - im sorry but this is fact.

There is too much left to the imagination and personal judgment and unexplained.

Your answer says drill from both ends for the burner bar ignoring the fact that the left had end that is threaded for the jet is smaller than the right hand end which is larger.

Goo d idea about plumbers solder and pipe legnths but this pre suposes that the final destination of pipes is known - which is not evident.

Sorry to be critical but this is a beginners artical the info is seriously lacking

I should be able to go into my workshop and produce everything needed - I cant

Regards

Pete

Martin

Please respect what I am saying - this is a beginers project. - its any thing but.

As regards the burner tube it can not be drilled from both ends as the left hand end is a smaller size required for tapp

ing for the burner je 0.280 hence my question as to how far the 0.290 should be drilled what you seem to say is simple with a sharp new drill which all mine are is not practical

Pete

Martin

In part 3 you ask for a sharing of info regarding the use of the Ronson valve direct into the tank fig 22 top.

This is how I have done mine except I did not think the notch cut in the side of the bush for the vent would work because of it filling with silver solder.

So after I had soldered my bushes in I fitted the filler valve and from the inside using a No 60 drill I drilled on the join between the bush and valve thread about 2/3rds way till it broke into the groove in the valve.

Only time will tell but looking at it under magnification it looks ok.

Could you advise on the working pressures for the boiler and gas tank so I can get them pressure tested please.

Ive made the burner bar except for the slots using a long series drill from Tracy Tools loads of cutting fluid and taking a long time to do it as you advised.

Next job is to cut the slots luckily I have a sutiable size slitting blade and can turn my milling head through 90 deg

Fig 32 there are 2 10ba clear holes in the one end what are they for or will it become apparent later?

Regards

Pete

HI PETE ... working pressure for the boiler is typically 40 P.S.I ... so its pressure test would be twice this ... i.e. 80 psi ... the gas tank will actually have a typical working pressure of a lot less than 100 psi ... it could even be down at 10 or 20 psi on a cold winters day ... there are many variables for how and where people place the tank in relation to the boiler and hot surfaces of the burner ... the tank temperature and pressure can go up and down like a yoyo !

A few years back I was the boiler tester for a local model boat club for many years ... available advice was limited, but the boilers were tested to 80psi and gas tanks were tested to 210 or 250 psi ... the test rig was made by me and calibrated with a large brand-new gauge ... I just used to get people to remove the boiler and gas tank from the model so the testing panel could test each item individually ... that was considered acceptable ... however, the world has changed and the newest rules for gas tanks now need a pressure test of 350 psi or 377 psi ... it seems to vary with who I have asked over the last few years ... the nearest club to my house, willing to do the pressure test, is 45 miles each way ...I have asked various members of that club how to achieve the testing on 2 or 3 occasions and it seems that they do not yet have a CALIBRATED AND CERTIFICATED gauge that reads up to 400 psi, nor do they possess a force pump that will handle 400 psi ... I have received a lot of blank looks from many people when I have asked them if they plan to get anything organised !!

It might be wise to check with your local M. E. group that they are equipped to do the test ? I tried to work out a timetable and concluded that it would take me 2 days in their workshop to do the full strip-down, inspection, pressure gauge check, safety valve check, gas tank test ( and drain ALL THE WATER ), reassemble everything and then finally perform a steam test on their track.

I am afraid I chickened out and abandoned the idea ... all my locos have tanks tested to 250 psi and they chug happily round my back garden,. but nowhere else !!

If your local society can sort out a simpler method for you then can you let me know please ? I would imagine they are a long way South of my "shed" ... we are way North of Watford !

As regards your question about figure 32 shown in part 5 ... figure 32 and 33 show the suspension bracket ... just above them is photo 28 ... this clearly shows the 2 small holes in the bracket ... in part 6 on page 158, there is fig 43 ... the 2 holes are shown at the base of the drawing for the square piece of metal ... the words "10 BA clear" have disappeared from the drawing !! alongside the figure is photo 36 ... this shows the 2 holes just under the copper pipe heading to the left.

The rear end of the smokebox support fits over the front end of the suspension bracket.

hope this is useful ... martin

Martin

Can yo describe what to expect a successful burner bar to be like if its fed from the gas tank and in free air.

Ive made mine using a mill but did not anticipate the bar would foul the mill and make me change the way I was making it so may have problems No swarf clean tube cuts so over to you

Regards

Pete