Cheap 3 in 1 tig welder - any one used one?

I did notice the spec Nigel. It's pretty disgusting really but they do quote a flow rate. Many don't and the figures a lot give are meaningless in practice. I've been down into this area before. It leaves me wondering why some one doesn't make a cheap belt drive one. What they do instead is run it at 2,800 rpm which makes the things inefficient. I have wondered if it's possible to buy a likely candidate and convert one. Scheppach provide good info on compressors as they all should really. These could give people an idea of what to expect from others but other aspects can change the efficiency. There tends to be a jump to 100l / min at 4 bar. Few will reach it. None at the really cheap end as far as I can see.

I wouldn't advice any one else to risk it but feel it's worth a go. I am prepared to take a hit as they do have a good spares outlet. It's 10 bar. I need less than 4 - I hope. That should help somewhat but maybe not enough. The other aspect is how long am I likely to take during a cut. Might need to walk round the garden between cuts.

It's a facility that comes as an extra really. I only wanted stick and tig. I suspect

They do guarantee the tank for 10 years. Pity about the motor. As it is Gernan I will really wonder if it will actually provide the flow rate. However in other areas they do seem to be a decent company. It will however be the first product I will be buying off them.

On bottles a Y looks the best option for my use. Not because of a lot of use but so that it doesn't need refilling often. Another option might be a Genie bottle from BOC. Sort of in between. I have ordered a 300bar regulator. I believe that fits in with certain other BOC bottles. Hence phone calls to discuss costs etc. I really wont like paying a collection charge though.

John

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Single stage reg for Argon?

Nice one!

Perhaps I should expand on that a bit. Regulators vary usually based on price. I didn't like the look of the twin gauge ones that I could see and would buy. I wouldn't be able to buy a single stage one that I would be pretty sure would work really well with up to 300 bar capability so bought a preset which takes it down to 5 bar. I understand that can be adjusted if needed. This brings the pressure down to a level where I wont have much of a problem finding a decent regulator to add to it - if needed. In fact the one that comes with it may be ok. That would save disconnecting at the back of the welder. Changing that on the welder wouldn't be straight forwards so it's best to use the tail end that is fitted to it. There are several possible arrangements.

As it stands I'd expect to have to tweak the flow regulation each time I have a welding session. I wont be welding all day.

One thing I wouldn't do is buy a good quality twin gauge that would cost nearly as much as the welder. Probably more going on regulators that I have bought - at work.

John

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For the enlightenment of anyone reading this; two gauges does not equal two stage.... it just means you can read the bottle pressure and outlet pressure. Two stage regulators have a high pressure regulator on the bottle side and a second low pressure regulator fed off it for more accuracy. The flow regulators are simply a needle valve with flow measurement on the outlet side. This is most often a bob in a tapered tube which indicates the gas flow rate rather than the gas pressure. The flow rate (volume per unit of time) is important for welding methods relying on shield gas (MIG & TIG) as it becomes very important to control when you get into "proper" welding rather than DIY "sticking together".

I think there may be some qualified/experienced welders on here that may provide more detail rather than the normal bull that gets spouted if people ask?

Mark

Thanks Mark - some reckon I type to much. Something i do pretty quickly but I only have so much time and full explanations would mean even more typing.

As I saw it in order to be fairly certain of flow levels as low as tig needs a combined flow meter and needle valve is a good idea. They don't cost much. Some outlets only stock ones that go to over 14 L/min I assume these are really for mig. Some stock both types. Without the gauge I wouldn't have any idea how much I was using or if the welder had a leak but I do have some leak detector spray - we had a gas leak. Then comes the over run on the control valve. Not that I could do anything about that if it's stupid.

The problem with regulators is getting one where the output remains constant as the pressure on the input changes. Using 2 in series helps but perfection is still costly.

John

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That is the reason for 2 stage regulator , makes for uniform output regardless of bottle pressure, basically two regulators in series , modern pcp air rifles use the same idea to get more shots per fill, and uniform pressure on each shot

As for too much typing, well it cant be said you were having Dirac moment..................b

I've got one for charging air riffles too but it's staying on the bottle. However I wouldn't expect that to charge to the same pressure as the air bottle runs down.

John

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I think you have missed the point , the second regulator is fitted inside the air rifle in tandem to first regulator, never mind i"m sure you will work it out and do it your way

The regulator I used to charge the air rifles is 2 stage.

John

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You have still missed the point, maybe your not reading my post properly ,Two regulators in series FITTED INSIDE the gun, IF your aware of the the two stage regulator for filling your air gun whats the problem to apply the same logic to welding bottle regulators..........Anyway i"m done cos as has been said before you are going to do it your way anyway.!

Go search BOC for an argon regulator and see what comes up and what it's for.Like I said I didn't like the look of the twin guage ones that came up and sad but true I really do know something about the problems with regulators. People can make their own choice any way so why not post that way.

Eg Bodge wouldn't buy a single stage regulator so would by a dual and explain why. That would be useful to others.

Curiously if done correctly form 300 bar that will change rather a lot to some thing a lot lower a single regulator should have some compensation in it to account for pressure changes at the feed end. It wont be perfect. Few things in the real world are. Will it have, wont it have. I don't know. As mentioned if it turns out to be a problem I'll do something about it.

Wish the thing would arrive. I suspect they have sent it via a canal.

John

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I have not stated i would not buy a single single stage regulator at any point in these post.....so there is nothing to explain, ............b ......As said in last post ....i"m done ...even more so now i"m accused of writing or even implying what you have you have just stated,.....i would suggest to you to read the posts with little more attention to what is written............b

Sorry Bodge - I have been getting some silly flack from some and wrongly assumed your post was more of it.

What I did was look what BOC sold. Took note of some comments about dual gauge with one showing flow, which looked useless going on the scale shown in photo's anyway. I did use mig for a while and aren't keen on it. I did waste gas out of disposable on that so wanted a flow gauge anyway. Wondered about adapting that to a disposable bottle regulator and went of the idea due to gas usage. Then I ordered the stuff. After all how long am I likely to have a welder active ? Even if crap it may well regulate well enough for that sort of period of time.

More important really is how much excess pressure the regulator needs to function correctly 'cause that will set how low a bottle can be taken. Maybe BOC think 2 bars or maybe in practice it's over that. I did see a comment that presets can be adjusted. The ones I have seen at work can be anyway. Strongly suspect the one on order can be as well.

John

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This what the 2 gauge units I have seen actually are. It can be confusing.

**LINK**

The 2nd gauge shows 0-30L/min. Some go higher. I've also read that some think that this style of regulator isn't terribly good at low flow rates. That wouldn't surprise me. They describe the other type as suitable for a laboratory use but some do use them.

**LINK**

I decided to go that way. In places parweld suggest using it with the 2 gauge one as well, Think people will see that if they search their site. Probably mentioned in the catalogue.

However real 2 stage ones can be bought and will show outlet pressure on the 2nd guage. I have one for air riffles. I wouldn't rely on it charging them correctly without twirling the knob until it shows the correct pressure for the gun so I always back it off before using it. Have to use a certain type of grease on the connections as well to make sure the gun doesn't explode - same stuff as divers use. Petroleum products would be bad news.

John

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Edited By Ajohnw on 22/12/2016 23:42:15

Apology accepted .............b

I look forward to the conclusion of your exploits on the original post, ie" cheap 3 in 1 welders - any one used one " which i take to mean " are they any good "

I have had a few goes with tig thanks to a welder i knew some 40 years ago, i got on with it ok, but his tig machines were the the best one could buy at the time and very expensive, but that was how he made his money, he was a damned good welder though

My home experience has only been with mig, which i bought twenty years ago,a very good machine with solid copper transformers made in Denmark so not a cheap m/c, i did look into tig at the time but tig stuff was still very expensive at the time, ( 20 years ago ) but tig has come on a long way since then,

It is only this last 5-10 years that tig has come down to an affordable level for home use, so it will be interesting to hear how you get on..................b

Not exactly cheap, but I bought one of these from R-Tech two years ago **LINK**. It was the biggest machine I could get at the time on 240V single phase. When Bodge mentioned the machines have come down in price, I would add that they have also come a long way technology wise also. The machine I have is only capable of DC (you need AC to work aluminium) but the computer controlled welding functions make it almost impossible to make really poor welds with it for most day to day repair/fabrication work. They refuse to let you stick the electrode to the work in MMA mode, MIG is a doddle and TIG is nice and smooth (although lift tig takes some practice). I have welded all sorts of machines together with it, they say 35% duty but that must be at 250A and you are going to be welding supertankers together at that power.... Most of the stuff I do is about 130A max and it will go all day (and often a fair bit of the night) at that. I was very surprised at the performance of this type of machine - and you can even pick it up and carry it to the job if necessary.

Mark

Have just had a look at your link to Par-weld in particular the 2 stage 2 gauge Argon gas saver unit,

States reduces gas surges and pulses, which is the idea of having 2 stage regulator, same thing applies to air rifles fitted with 2 regulators in series first regulator takes care of the high pressure pulse,seconed regulator then supplies a more consistant working pressure

This is why you get more shots per fill and more consistent muzzle velocity ,or to put it another way in air rifle terms a wider sweet spot per fill as the sweet spot starts form the first shot when the gun reservoir pressure is at its highest till enough shots have been fired to the the point where the reservoir pressure has fallen below the working pressure for given muzzle velocity, ..........b

Edited By bodge on 23/12/2016 01:38:25

Got to endorse what Mark has said.

Many years ago I bought a brand new BOC / Murec 200 amp AC / DC TiG welder, not cheap but I do a lot of welding, mainly broken alloy castings and one advantage is I can TiG weld good. I had a ticket for welding on aircraft fuel tanker in another life.

So quite happy with this piece of kit until about 5 years ago when I had a go with one of these cheap Chinese £500 AC / DC TiG welders.

Talk about blown away, the difference was like night and day, so went out and bought one and since then the big TiG set has been on possibly once or twice and in fact was sold last month as no longer needed.

I can carry this new set in one hand, the other was on wheels and needed a crane or fork truck to get into the Donald. Single phase as opposed to 3 phase so far more portable.

If there is any fault with these it's that the book is useless but You tube comes to the rescue - yet again.

Mark C

A valid comment, when l stated Tig has come on a long way in the last 5-10 years i was thinking in terms of technology as well as price

I always think of Tig in terms of aluminium as that was what i was needing forty years ago when my welder friend was around, and i did get on with ok as i got to have a go with it a few times in his work shop when things were a bit quiet

So question, are AC / DC Tig machine available these days at a home work shop price

Have just read J S post so i will take it thats a NO then !................b oops i think just read that wrong and it should be a YES ! ... its late and off to the land of nod will check it out later.........b

Edited By bodge on 23/12/2016 02:16:25

Edited By bodge on 23/12/2016 02:22:35

Let's be clear on the regulated air guns. They only have one regulator which limits the air pressure used. The simple outcome is to provide consistent muzzle energy over the useful main gas bottle range. Consistent muzzle energy means consistent pellet velocity over the pellet count from first shot to air bottle refill time. The 'unregulated' mechanism is designed such that it allows less air volume (at high pressure) and more (at lower pressure) due to its cycling time lengthening as the pressure drops (valve tends to stay open longer).

Yes, the number of shots may be increased marginally, but the whole concept is to provide a consistent muzzle energy over the whole usefull pressure range of the bottle - and nothing else!.

Typically bottles are filled to 190 Bar and without regulation, pellet energy is initially high, then has a reasonable range for good accuracy, then the muzle energy falls off rapidly at pressures, say, below 120 bar. All the single internal regulator does is give a consistent firing pressure from max to useful min fill pressure.

Muzzle energy in the UK must not exceed about 16 Joules unless the user has a firearms certificate(FAC).  All the regulator does is maintain a constant muzzle energy, generally close to that maximum, without exceeding it, for the whole useful pressure range between refills.  FAC versions also benefit in the same way, of course, but at an elvated muzzle energy.

Edited By not done it yet on 23/12/2016 09:28:35