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Hallam Engine

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Alan Worland04/03/2010 21:45:25
247 forum posts
21 photos
Crikey you have been busy! Thanks for your efforts.
As you have probably read in my post my throttle is VERY sensitive - about 1/4 turn open is probably what I had it running on previously
It was definately running, I have not experienced an 'oscillating' condition - looking at the crank end I have had it running anti-clockwise. I know it will run both ways but the prop I had required that running direction.
With your new carb fitted were you able to control the speed of the engine at all?
As I had 'oiled up' the plug several times on removing it for cleaning I checked it for spark by laying it on my metal topped bench and as I have said previous with increasing revs there seems to be a reduction in spark - I am convinced there is insufficient time allowed on the cam to energise the coil properly, I am interested to see if you find similar.
What sort of current does a glow plug draw? I believe they work from 1.5 volts?
I will probably have another go tomorrow - glutten for punishment! I use a piece of 1/2 inch dowel to flick the prop but after my last experience I feel my finger would be quite safe.
Ramon Wilson04/03/2010 23:28:56
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1655 forum posts
617 photos
Hi Alan,
That's interesting you are sure it wasn't oscillating. I've seen it before on small engines diesels in particular when it can sound quite 'rough' but never as smooth and as ready to run as consistently in the state as this one was today! so I guess we need to keep looking then
 
I'm still convinced this is a fuel/air problem possibly coupled with internal distribution. Your description was the problem I found - just a mere crack of the needle was sufficient to bring about a flooded state. The system made is much better at controling the fuel and it will run over a good turn or more. Screwing it in gradually leans it out, the rpm increasing and the engine note becoming smoother. At this stage though cooling, or rather lack of, becomes a problem, those fins are so marginal, there isn't really much material (even on that original head) to dissipate the heat and the engine soon loses its seal until it cools again. It isn't labouring at all but it definitely prefers a richer mixture to aid cooling.  That is not to say it's being leaned out to such an extent as to cause overheating - like yours it's new - virtually unrun so that is not an option as yet. The newness is born out by the crankpin. It is in very slightly 'on the huh' sideways (looking down on it at TDC). This has caused the bronze big end bearing to deposit on the pin - something there was no evidence of when initially stripped down but this doesn't appear to be having any apparent effect on the running as yet. Despite this newness the engine flips over very easilly - no sign of any tightness at all at any point.
 
Having now established that it does indeed run I shall now get on to the spark side. I have read up as much as I can from what I have been able to obtain so far on engines of the period and most describe the cam as fitted as the norm. But like you I can't 'see' at the moment how that short closed period allows sufficient time for the coil to work. It will probably be next week before I will be able to get back onto it. I just hope the coil and condenser I have are serviceable. I certainly don't want to think about electronic systems at this stage though there's no doubt they seem to be much more positive and reliable. 
 
Glow plugs can be 1.5v or 2v. A 1.5v can easily burn out on a freshly charged 2v battery.
and the 2v don't work too well with the 1.2 v rechargeable type self contained glow plug 'starters' if the engine is a bit of a recalcitrant one (This is all hand starting of course)
 
A rubber sheathed wood 'chicken stick' isn't a bad idea, I did get a few raps on the back of the fingers today - occupational hazard? - but I really don't like those thick rubber finger protectors as you lose all feel of the engine. A good stout leather gardening glove is what I use - doesn't stop the occasional whack but the fingers are still all here!
 
The video transpires to be slightly disappointing in that it doesn't run for long enough - a non modelling friend was taking it for me and the camera only has a couple of mins recording time. The big problem though is that so far I have been unable to transfer it such that I can post it. I will work on this though and see if I can get some better coverage and with luck actually get it on here.
 
 
 
Circlip05/03/2010 11:01:35
1723 forum posts
One thing you COULD try Alan is posting on :-
 
 
 With the best will in the world, getting info from third parties twice removed really confuses the issue.
 
  One reason for using a sparkie in toy boats was that they were slow revving but had bags of TORQUE so the howl of a glow type hadn't been invented. The "Oscillations" syndrome was usually induced in toy Diesels by trying to run too rich so you got a sloppy sound when flicking over with a naked finger.
 
  As you're "Wimping out" () by using a starter, this is hard to believe that it's "Four Stroking".
 
  Keep taking the pills.
 
  Regards  Ian.
Alan Worland05/03/2010 21:03:55
247 forum posts
21 photos
Great website Circlip - thanks
jomac08/03/2010 13:37:42
113 forum posts

Hi, just a few thoughts. while I was turning up some cylindical squares.

First try reducing the oil ratio down to 10%-12%, it seems to have an excess of oil or fuel dripping out of the exhaust, that could be put down to a bad air to fuel ratio,

Second idea, is that in the early years small manufacturers had to cut costs some how,

Getting the machineist to make there own needles was expensive, so was buying box's of sewing needles, but there was a big supply of gramaphone needles, unfortunately most makers had different shaped profiles and tapers,So if a hobby model engine maker took one off there own record player, it was a hit an miss affair, The other problem was that 50 years ago, small drills were not the same strength and quality that we have now, and if the home machinist had a worn or badly sharpened drill, if drilled from the needle side of the tube, bell mouthing could occur, As an example put a washer over a morse taper, pull it back, say 20mm and see what the air gap is, then put it in another morse taper, pull it back the same amount, and you will see a much bigger air gap. coupled with a miss matched needle, you now have a hard to tune engine.

So, make a selection of needles of varying tapers, clean up the needle seat, and see how that goes.( MEN has articles on makeing needles and tubes), You need a combination that will allow the coarse needle adjusting screw on your engine to work properly, ie, at least two to three turns of the screw,to get from from low revs to nearly full rev.

I saw an article on making needles, useing the right diameter piano wire, just by fixing one end solid, using pliers or a rod, on the free end and then  heating the the section to be tapered,with a gas burner pulling and stretching the wire to get the right taper, then cutting out the section you needed.

Hope this is some help.

John Holloway

Alan Worland08/03/2010 18:38:59
247 forum posts
21 photos
Thanks John - there is obviously something very wrong in the needle department as it was so critical on setting, when it did run virtually any adjustment of needle would cause the engine to stop. Looking at the needle it does look quite 'blunt'. Could be worth re-engineering this area.
My last attempt at getting it to run was very dissapointing - it didn't! A few pops here and there and that was it!
As it was again very oily I dilluted the petrol mix by about 50% (making about 12%) but it didn't make any improvement to starting.
Although in the video it was not running properly at least it would start and run on demand, I don't know what has changed - at the moment it is just an oily paperweight!
Alan Worland08/03/2010 18:39:20
247 forum posts
21 photos
Thanks John - there is obviously something very wrong in the needle department as it was so critical on setting, when it did run virtually any adjustment of needle would cause the engine to stop. Looking at the needle it does look quite 'blunt'. Could be worth re-engineering this area.
My last attempt at getting it to run was very dissapointing - it didn't! A few pops here and there and that was it!
As it was again very oily I dilluted the petrol mix by about 50% (making about 12%) but it didn't make any improvement to starting.
Although in the video it was not running properly at least it would start and run on demand, I don't know what has changed - at the moment it is just an oily paperweight!
Frank Dolman08/03/2010 18:46:55
106 forum posts

     My silly question for today:  has your battery gone flat?
Frank Dolman08/03/2010 18:49:18
106 forum posts

     My silly question for today;  has your battery gone flat??
chris stephens08/03/2010 19:07:37
1049 forum posts
1 photos
Hi Alan,
Two strokes  are notorious for fowling their spark plugs. Take the plug out and while earthing it, trigger the points and see what sort of a spark you get. If it is a bright orange one, or not firing across the the electrodes, your plug is fowled. Give it a good clean and don't think that because you cleaned it two minutes ago that it hasn't fowled again. They can fowl in seconds, especially if it is running rich or over oiled.
The ideal colour of spark is bluey-white, I believe that the orange colour is from ionizing the excess oil or petrol vapours. Just because you have a spark, it does not mean it will fire the mixture, it has to be the right sort of spark.
Years of motorcycle two strokes have taught me this. I wont bore you lot with tales of Yamahas so flooded that the exhausts were half full of liquid petrol. It does bring to mind though the thought that if your engine wont start, have you tried turning the engine upside down, and without the spark plug in, turned the prop. If liquid comes out the plug hole it is a sure sign that the crankcase was flooded.
chriStephens 
Circlip08/03/2010 19:44:21
1723 forum posts
Does it "Fowl" if you use a chicken stick????
chris stephens08/03/2010 20:28:12
1049 forum posts
1 photos
Chicken on the brain I guess, as well as the menu. I'll let others say "chicken brain"
Ain't English grand and Yaboo-sucks to my spell checker.
If my spelling is the only thing you can correct me on, I'm a happy bunny.
chriStephens 
Alan Worland09/03/2010 20:14:13
247 forum posts
21 photos
Thanks Frank but battery fine! Look for the obvious first!
 
I have 'drained the crankcase' a couple of times - flooding not major.
I have only had the plug not spark a couple of times and it will give a nice fat whitey/blue spark. It was set to about .025 but I have opened it up a bit, no change though! I was suprised how well it gives a spark with just slow cranking, suggesting that a normal 'flick' should start it?
Martin W10/03/2010 16:20:38
940 forum posts
30 photos
Alan
 
Not sure if it has been covered or not but it could be that the coil is failing. While it gives a good spark at atmospheric pressure when the ambient pressure is increased i.e. in the cylinder at near TDC, the voltage required to generate the spark increases significantly.
 
Stirring me grey matter from 50 or so years ago when points and coil was the standard car ignition I seem to remember that this increase in voltage can cause an ignition coil to fail internally and stop it generating a spark. I believe that this can also be applied to the spark plug itself where the actual spark then doesn't go across the plug tip but arcs over elsewhere in the body of the plug. Another possibility is that the capacitor might be failing of have a poor electrical contact with the earth of the coil, again a faulty capacitor can cause a loss of spark.
 
Then we had a piece equipment in which you could mount the spark plug and observe the spark gap while increasing the pressure. Frequently it was seen that some coils and plugs we tested would perform brilliantly at atmospheric pressure but quickly lost spark as the pressure increased. 
 
I expect you will have covered much of this in your own investigation and there will be other ideas out there which will be worth looking at.
 
Might be worth while swapping things about if you have some spare bits.
 
 
Cheers
 
Martin W

Edited By Martin W on 10/03/2010 16:26:22

Alan Worland10/03/2010 16:57:48
247 forum posts
21 photos
Thanks for that Martin, When I initialy ran the engine is was using the coil from my car - aright lashup with many feet of cable - including improvised HT lead!
Since I have been trying to run it again I have been using another coil (also 50 odd years old) and a proper HT lead, and it doesn't want to know! Could be suspect coil.
I think my next stage will be to repeat the original heath robinson setup!
Ramon Wilson17/03/2010 16:56:37
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1655 forum posts
617 photos
Well after a bit of a delay caused by unforseen factors I finally managed to get some time on this example today with reasonable results......
 
But first a day or two back -
Having bolted the original head back in place the lack of compression and sounds of leaking were apparent. A squirt of fuel showed frothing around the head and the plug seating. There are no gaskets fitted to any joints on this engine. The head was held in soft jaws by the cylinder register and a minimum skim taken across the plug seat. The plug, a 'Pacy' was taken apart and the boken insulator repaired with epoxy. (So far no problems with this repair at all). A new copper plug washer was turned and annealed.
The head was then refitted paying real care to the bolting up and the compression improved considerably ( though I still have my doubts over the composite piston's ability to hold compression as well as one machined from one piece).
 
The cam was set so that with the timing arm in its retarded postion the spark occured just after TDC and a locking arm made from 1/8 brass rod, one end threaded to fit the timing arm and knurled for grip the other. The intake tube and spray bar fitted was the homemade one that had been proven when using glow fuel.
 
The coil - totally unmarked so an 'unknown quantity' appeared to deliver a good spark from a 6v supply which also showed I guess that the condensor was also functioning correctly. The let down was the petrol - last years lawn mower from the shed kind - spit pop bang - but no run more than two or three seconds and a worn out shoulder however it was felt the parameters were there.
 
Today however, with new petrol (super unleaded) mixed 4:1 with two stroke oil, another attempt was made. This time the engine showed much more promise and began to fire and run for  a few seconds at a time. These short 'runs' were sufficient to see that even with the much finer control with the home made needle valve it is incredibly easy to flood this engine. The plug was checked - oily - and the gap checked, something over looked in eagerness. The 30! thou gap then was quickly reset to 10, the plug cleaned and instant success - it  fired and ran within an armful of flicks.  By manipulating the timing and resetting the needle the revs improved and the engine settled nicely into a reasonably consistant run.
I have no idea of the revs, perhaps 3000 - 4000ish they certainly appeared much lower than anticipated and are not much more than Alan's engine appears to give. What I was really surprised to find was that the needle in it's optimum position was open just 1-1/4 turns supporting the comment read that "these type of engines (spark) will run on a mere smell of petrol" (It was some 31/2 turns when using glow fuel)
 
I have had several runs of three - four minutes (have to think of the neighbours) all on a 13 x 5 wooden prop The engine like Alan's is still new inside and needs to bed in as yet but is not tight anywhere. The timing arm is not critical as such, but does need to be in 'just the right place' to give a consistent run and being able to move it whilst running is definitely a requirement.
 
As with trying it on glow it does get hot and begins to hunt a little before dying off slowly (newness perhaps) then it does not like starting until it cools somewhat, however I might try some smaller props perhaps 12 and 11 x 5's to see if the run smooths out at slightly higher rpm 
 
I did take some video and yes I have managed to get it into the computer however does this have to go on You Tube for anyone to see it or am I able to use Picasa as I do with still pics ( I've had a good look on Picasa today - it talks of movies and video but simply can't see how to get the file on there for others to see - anyone know how to do this?
 
Despite some thoughts I have learnt quite a lot by taking an interest in Alan's initial posting - it has brought me into contact with others whose opinions have been taken at face value then acted upon to prove right or wrong. By doing that I now feel much more confident in attepting a 'sparkie' of my own in the near future which I guess is what its all about.
 
Regards for now - Ramon
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Ramon Wilson27/03/2010 23:04:24
avatar
1655 forum posts
617 photos
Hi Alan,
Thanks for the PM. Thought you and possibly others interested would like to see a some pics of the Ohlson and Rice sparkie I mentioned.
 
 
 
 
This was recently given to me by the friend I borrowed the Hallam off. Apart from a very rusty steel cylinder outside the internals appear to be okay. The method of construction is quite unusual - the piston has to be rotated through 90 degrees to remove it through the crankcase front as the liner,fins and head are all one piece and are, I am informed, 'spot welded' into the crankcase. The round mark just above the crankcase opening is repeated on the rear and is apparently the 'plug' pressed in after welding to 'finish off'.
There is a heat witness mark clearly visible on the liner inside and I'm told it needs special tooling to replace it if the liner is actually removed.
Unfortunately it is missing it's timing arm and points so something will have to be made if one can't be sourced but the rest of it should rebuild nicely - the cylinder heads were evidently lacquered black and, despite the rust, there is some very slight remains of that to confirm it. It will certainly be nice to try and restore it to running condition again.
 
My friend was quite positive about 'rebuilding the insides' of the Hallam to see if the running characteristics can be improved but this and this O&R will now have to wait until later in the year though I am trying to get a bit more done on the Racers before the garden takes precedence!
 
Good to hear you are now getting some results yourself on the Hallam and do keep us posted on your new experiences with the Magnum.
 
Regards - Ramon
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
thomas oliver 204/04/2010 22:55:31
110 forum posts
I have a Hallam 10cc which I made from original castings and have had the same sorts of trouble which you have had.  I found many inaccuracies in the original drawings, and the castings were awful.  I abandoned trying to fettle it years ago, as I found that there was a lot of sub piston induction which should not have been there, even though it is made accurately to plan.  I will eventually be making a new piston slightly longer to cure this. On the earlier two-strokes the pistons all had a deflector  formed on the piston top to deflect the incoming gas upwards towards the top of the cylinder, so the deflector needs to be on the transfer side. This is called loop scavenging.  The separate deflector on the Hallam allows  hand manufacture instead of milling it on.  Few early model engineers had a milling machine.
    I have the plans,  and I can send you a copy if you still need one, and send me your address.  Tom Oliver
Alan Worland05/04/2010 00:03:24
247 forum posts
21 photos
All these Hallams about! Great to have contact from someone who has built one
Tom, I have pm'd you
Nice little project you have there Ramon, in many ways it seems similar to the Hallam, I think my results were temporary as blisters on my 'starting hand' I think will relagate it back to the drawer for a while!
Ramon Wilson05/04/2010 00:23:00
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1655 forum posts
617 photos
Hi Alan and Tom,
 
Seems that these engines if nothing else are consistent in their running properties and bear out their apparent reputation for not being 'particularly great runners'.
I would be most interested in seeing a copy of the drawings Tom and will send you a PM later.
Interesting to hear of the sub piston induction. A bit late to check it tonight but I'm pretty certain this example does not have any.
 
The time away from this for a few days has seen some progress on the Racers but as said it will be a few weeks before I can get back onto either of these engines.
 
Thanks for your kind offer Tom -be in touch tomorrow
 
Regards - Ramon
 

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