Is CNC cheating

Most judges would down mark you if you had machining marks left on the work so it would still come down to hand finishing unless there is a CNC draw filing machine about or you have a robotic paint sprayer

J.

It seems to me that the concept of cheating implies that there is a competition. The only model engineering competitions I know of are at the exhibitions so it is probably best to ask the judges. What are their criteria?

In the past though, sheer volume of work seems to weigh heavily in the competitors favour, so a 9 cylinder radial engine will always out impress a single and gain considerably more marks even though no more skill has gone into making 8 more cylinders than went into the first. CNC just decreases the labour, not the skill.

Rod

I'm with Andrew, I found the original posting somewhat insulting, as well as showing a great lack of understanding of what CNC involves.

I think fizzy started an interesting and informative debate. Surely he has the right to express his opinion about a technology of interest to Model Engineers without being accused of gross insensitivity, insolence, and contemptuous rudeness? Especially as he raised the issue in a way clearly intended to allow others to disagree with him.

Dave

I'm not so sure on that Rod. Keeping on going for eight more cylinders and keeping up the concentration to get them all as right as the first one is a skill on its own.

That's the skill they were teaching apprentices back in the day when they made them file 4" square blocks of 1" steel steel plate perfectly flat and square then cut a perfectly square hole in the middle of it and file another block to a perfect fit in it.

By the time my younger brother came to do his apprenticeship, the cheeky blighter used to jump on the surface grinder while the apprentice instructor was away at lunch and knock his steel block down nice and flat then throw a few draw file marks on it for good measure. He got full points for the finished product. Some would say he cheated. He says he got the job done, the smart way.

If you view this thread as a tongue in cheek one then it can inspire lively debate

It would be interesting to know if Fizzy thinks it is cheating for model engineering only or all forms of home shop machining? Are those who may be making parts for motorbikes, RC models etc also cheating. And what about those making tooling, machines and parts for them who may never get round to making models.

If it does only apply to Model engineering what about those who like to model modern things where CNC may well have been used on the original item so are those diesel loco and V8 engine builders cheating if they use the same methods as the original constructors used?

J

Oddly enough I find it offensive to be called a cheat.

Andrew

That could be interpreted to mean, you are CNC? If Cnc means cheating and you are a cheat, hypothetically, that makes you "a cnc".  Like a robot?

I would be ONC, organic neural control! Can't beat that faulty memory. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 01/09/2016 15:47:57

Cue, the stuckists! They don't like them city folk.

Michael W

It would be unwise to suggest interest when the following statement leads to infer ridicule or hypocrisy. I should not take that as meaning sincere interest.

Michael W

Many thanks for Stuckism - my latest word of the day.

Cheers,

Dave

So I suppose that if you CAD design your model and outsource the CNC machining, then you would have made it yourself. Its a bit like buying nuts, bolts and springs and saying I made it all myself. I would think that judging at competition level will become even more difficult if we try to differentiate the different types of machine we use. Its a fact that we can't all afford the latest techniques and we should enjoy what we can afford and use and enjoy the hobby. For me, I have total diss interest in prizes and judging, but if a small write up of what was used to make a model was beside the model, it may encourage the less tooled up members when they see a model made by a hacksaw, file and pillar drill etc etc.
BobH

Lets presume we can all play god for a second, and anything you wanted to build; you could have, how long would that novelty last? Would you really call that a skill, just demanding something and it's done? 

You would eventually reach a point where nothing would be of interest to you anymore because there was no challenge to set your eyes onto. So yes, i think the challenge of the process is part of what makes model engineering so interesting.

The CNC part of the argument, is simply a vehicle for a much deeper question about whether we apprieciate it's manufacture as a skill. Nobody would argue that cnc can't be difficult and challenging at times. They aren't attacking you for that. 

The real reason for it is almost a prescient fear of the unknown, when do we reach a point when we can just demand anything to be made exactly to our requirements and not lift a finger to do it? Are we ready or mature enough for that kind of power? That, ladies and gentlemen, is the source of the concern. CNC would be just like anything else if it wasn't for it's hidden potential, "plain ol' plain Jane humdrum C'n'c",  a sense of whether something has been earned, or fairness. 

Michael W

Edited By Michael Walters on 01/09/2016 16:25:06

Sorry, my bad, it was to Michael Topping.

Nicholas Wheeler 1

It's not as as if cranking handles on manual machines is a romantic mystical process tinged with magic. It's just work.

?

Perhaps I am weird (some have said it!) but that is exactly the opposite to how I feel when I am machining! Perhaps Nick needs a different hobby!

Phil

I build and race tethered cars, the only measure is the speed you achieve apart from passing scruteneering. I use whatever technology is available. My workshop is manual but if I can get a part cnc machined chassis I do, for welding up tuned pipes I use a local specialist tog welder etc. I don't consider myself a cheat and many would not consider me a model engineer. But I enjoy the competion with fellow racers.

Keeping on with dogged determination is certainly an admirable quality, but a skill?

Your brother's behaviour is interesting. If the idea is to pass an exam, then yes, he cheated since he has not demonstrated the ability to file a cube. He has also cheated himself since he did not take the opportunity to learn how to file like a craftsman.

But, unless we home engineers are entering competitions, then there is no arbiter on what is right and what is wrong but oneself. I think Andrew's response is a bit harsh: it's only a debating point. Unless, of course, Fizzy's original comment was meant as a "I'm holier than thou boast", which I don't think it was.

We could (and probably will ) debate this forever, for I don't believe there is a right answer.

Cheers,

Rod

I don't know about you all but I see this as a "tool-envy" issue as much as a point of principle. None of us really make everything and if we're honest we all use the most appropriate tool we have to get the job done better, quicker or easier.

I'd love a Bridgeport Mill with power feed, a decent big capacity lathe with power cross-feed and a tracing attachment, a pantograph engraving machine and a surface grinder and a CNC mill or the time and money to build one but I've got none of them. I've got an old Myford and an old round column mill and I enjoy using them and making things within mine and their capabilities.

...but hats off to those who have the time and money and especially those who can persuade their other halves they're worth it

...and it doesn't matter what you've got there'll always someone better equipped than you.

...Get over it!

Jon

I'm an old G code man, I don't have CAD/CAM as I don't know how to use them, all my programs are hand written, I do now use the computer to work out the trig these days, so is CNC cheating? not if you use G code it isn't!