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The HobbyMat BFE 65 again

A burnt out something or other

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joegib17/07/2010 09:58:47
154 forum posts
18 photos
Hi Sam,

Sorry to hear you weren't able to achieve a quick fix yet. Hopefully, our electrical specialists will be able help further (I hasten to say my earlier reference to electroheads wasn't meant to be disrespectful). In the meantime I'll post a few further comments about re-assembly and other matters.

1. My motor's capacitor is also 40μF so it's standard albeit it doesn't match the circuit diagram.

2. From your description it doesn't look as though the motor needs replacement. For the record, however, I'll just say that this is another oddball feature about the machine. According to the motor plate the motor has an IEC 63 frame which would normally correspond to a shaft diameter of 11mm. However, this motor actually has a shaft diameter of 14mm which matches an IEC 71 frame.

3. On reflection I was a bit vague in my description of the re-assembly procedure. I'd forgotten that the Hobbymat lathe only has a fairly narrow D-section shear so blocks placed on this won't be stable enough. I'd recommend, therefore, that you make a little platform out of scrap plywood/MDF/battens/blockwood to straddle the lathe bed and provide a solid base for the head. If you remove the lathe topslide the platform only needs to be high enough to clear the crosslide table.

4. As regards the problem of the T-nuts, I've remembered how I handled this.  Place the head on the platform with the mounting ring uppermost (motor to left, spindle to right). Place the T-nuts in the 3 and 9 o'clock positions. Put a couple of solid gobbets of grease behind the T-nuts (to provide some stickablity when the ring is turned into the vertical). Screw a couple of short lengths of suitable studding into the T-nuts (if you don't have studding, improvise some by cutting the heads off suitable metric bolts). Turn the head over on the platform so the ring/T-nuts/studding face the column. With your index/forefingers clasping the studding each side of the ring, and using the heels of your hands (or chest/stomach!), slide the head towards the column mounting spigot. Push it home using your fingers to guide the studding through the capscrew holes on the mounting block. With a capscrew in one hand close to the hole, gently unscrew the studding with your other hand and as soon as it's free, quickly stick the capscrew into the hole so it snags the T-nut hole before the latter has a chance to slide down (the grease should hold it long enough). Repeat on the other side, and it only remains to tighten up, wind the head up the column, swing it into its vertical position and you're done.  

Joe
 
john swift 117/07/2010 11:38:55
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318 forum posts
183 photos
Hi Sam ,
 
            I suspect when the manual was produced another type of motor had been selected .
motors up to 200 watts or so are made that have a small capacitor connected all the time  as shown in the manual.
the 40uF capacitor looks right for motors with a centrifugal switch as you have
 
if the current you measured in both windings is after the motor achieved speed
double check the centrifugal switch does open when the motor is at speed
while it sounds like its working the contacts may be welded closed or you have
a wiring fault .
 
as you have noticed products from europe are designed for 220v-240v
since the uk gave in to europe , sorry harmonised with , the mains voltage here is
still 230v to 250v .the figures fudged to keep the  bureaucrats happy and confuse every one else
example my thomson / sky  tv box,  made in france is labled  230v 50 Hz 
and another thomson box 220v-240v
 
 
Martin W17/07/2010 11:59:02
940 forum posts
30 photos
Hi Sam
 
Motors aren't really my field but I have a couple of observations/questions regarding the motor and its running or not.
 
1.   I take it that the motor runs up to speed when the mains is directly applied to it. The fact that the capacitor is getting hot indicates that the centrifugal switch is not breaking the supply to the start winding. Although you can hear it, or part of it, operating it may the contacts are not opening. Alternatively there may be a short in the wiring in/or associated with this switch. Is the switch and wiring easily accessed for inspection?
 
2.   This is where I am on shaky ground .  If the centrifugal switch is not operating/opening then of course there will be current flowing in the start winding and 5 amps or so does not seem excessive for this. If this is the case then could this be causing a higher current to be flowing in the running windings of the motor . If so then you fears re shorted turns in the winding could well be unfounded.
 
3.   I seem to recall that I had a similar fault with a latching relay switch and it was down to a failure in the connections to the latching coil winding. It was cured by replacing the switch.
 
4.  With regard to volts and measured current. This is complex area as the phase between current and voltage varies with the inductance and capacitance of the load. Capacitors cause a phase lag of voltage to current and inductors cause a phase advance of voltage to current. Therefore estimating the power being dissipated in such a circuit is not simply multiplying voltage by current.
 
5. On the circuit diagram supplied there doesn't appear to be a centrifugal switch in circuit with the capacitor feed to the start windings.
 
Just a few observations that hopefully may be helpful.
 
 
Cheers Martin
 
 

Edited By Martin W on 17/07/2010 12:17:02

Sam Stones18/07/2010 07:12:13
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922 forum posts
332 photos

Thanks to you Joe, John, and Martin. As with others who have contributed to this thread, I really appreciate your comments both electrical and mechanical.

I must also apologise if I keep repeating myself. My own knowledge of electrics and electronics is relatively flimsy, and although my father was an electrician, I still rely heavily upon others like yourselves for technical support and confirmation. Conversely, my friend has a respectable background in these fields, and used various pieces of test equipment to determine the motor issues.

With mains connected directly, ie. bypassing the START/STOP solenoid etc. the motor runs up to speed. However, there is a distinct hum which concerned my friend. As I’ve mentioned before, the centrifugal switch can be heard operating, but according to the current-meter reading, there is current flowing through the capacitor.

To close a few loose ends, when I tried the solenoid START/STOP operation with the motor disconnected, it failed to latch. But it did produce the pulsating mains hum I mentioned before. So there’s a `Non-latching’ fault which needs fixing. I suspect that if the centrifugal switch has failed to open and therefore failing to disconnect the capacitor during the running mode, the protection circuit may have suffered.

We didn’t investigate the centrifugal switch, but this afternoon, I removed the cowl, the nylon cooling fan, and the die-cast cover over the centrifugal switch. A long brass screw passes through a bush and the motor shaft to keep the rotating parts of the switch in place. However, without a puller tool, I wasn’t prepared to try removing the bush and the rotating parts. The bush was firmly stuck to the shaft!

It wasn’t possible to see the switch contacts or the wiring Martin, although I could move the sliding part of the switch, ie. the part which is usually toggled from one position to the other and back again. The mechanical parts all appear to work freely against their respective springs.

Having reached this point, I have decided to leave things alone until I’ve spoken with the owner of the HobbyMat lathe/mill. He may choose to take this on board himself, and I need to get on with finishing the clock.

By the way, although I don’t know what the current-meter is actually called, it has large, heavily insulated jaws which open to surround and close around a single wire. I presume that it determines AC amperage by means of the induced magnetic field.

Joe - thanks for your description of how to place the T-nuts. I did it once before, but it was all lying on the bench, and the bolts were at 12 and 6 o-clock. The first one went in a treat, but I had to jiggle around for the second one. A good blob of grease will do fine, but would you believe that my tin went out the door when I got rid of my workshop? Currently, that section of the mill is now on the vertical column, and the bolts are at 3 and 9 o-clock. I expect that I’ll have to fish a little.

Given more time, I would be inclined to machine a ring of wood or similar material to fit loosely in the T-slot. This would be cut into two pieces removing the extra material where the T-nuts normally sit. Given more time, a ring made of steel could be used, suitable threaded to completely replace the T-nuts. Of course this would require unscrewing more screws to access the back of the T-slot.

Thanks again.

Sam

Steve Garnett18/07/2010 23:40:37
837 forum posts
27 photos
Posted by Sam Stones on 18/07/2010 07:12:13:

By the way, although I don’t know what the current-meter is actually called, it has large, heavily insulated jaws which open to surround and close around a single wire. I presume that it determines AC amperage by means of the induced magnetic field.

We call them clamp meters, and yes, they work in exactly the way you describe.

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