Warco HV6 rotary table

JohnP's video is very informative. The first thing I noted was the scrap feedstock which was being melted down, an assortment of aluminium parts which were variously die cast and sand cast items. So the melts will vary continually depending on what is fed into the furnace. Pistons will be high silicon content with a smidgen of copper, die cast motor endplates will have a high zinc content, etc - nowhere was there a strontium flux used to degas the melt, in fact no flux was added (I would expect a Borax powder at some point ) that I could see. The only thing I saw was a bag of (possibly talcum powder ) some 'dust' added to the mould as a release agent. The chiselling of the semi solidified material was interesting as a crude form of 'squeeze' casting - which imparts a grain modification similar to forging.

As for Chris Crew's comments about the CNC machinery used and the design methodology being a great leveller in the production of Third world components, this is both naivety and ample evidence that Chris certainly has little to no knowledge of the importance of materials and processes in an industrial context. Due to the parsimonious nature of business and especially manufacturing in China there is a compelling reason to 'skimp' on both material and process to deliver goods at the lowest possible cost. This even reaches into the home market place and is not just a 'rip off' for Johnny Foreigner. At a major Chinese State jointly owned Motor manufacturer we had to continually fight against poor quality materials and skimped processes - Cylinder blocks that had more holes than Gruyere cheese, because the casting sand was not damp but wet! A serious problem due to the high humidity in China for at least 8 months of the year. Valves that in prototype form were 21/4N steel came in at production level as 10/2N (because it was much cheaper than 21/4N ) and until we tracked the cause down resulted in engine failures at an unprecedented level, the upshot of this was the MD of the suppliers got a 12 year penal sentence! Processes that were agreed at prototype level (heat treatments, quenching, surface finishes, and anti corrosion processes ) were found to be either drastically modified later for production or completely ignored. As I have stated before the problem with the Chinese mentality is that if a thing is poor quality or worse still fails it is not the products fault but due to the 'bad karma' of the person that bought it. I experienced this when I bought an electric kettle from Carrefour in Shanghai, within a week it broke so took it back, they were flabbergasted to think that I had the gall to return a failed item as it reflected on what a bad person I was!!!

Meanwhile in the Westernised Far East - Japan, Korea, and certainly Taiwan - know that the customer is paramount and offer good quality and products which please. I would also add that Vietnam is a growing industrial strength that has / is following the example of the later mentioned countries, despite being a totalitarian Communist regime it has seen the error of the Chinese way. They also have no love of the Chinese after the Sino-Viet war of 1974 when they inflicted the bloodiest of noses on the invading Chinese.

Martin

Martin, to be honest you wrote the excellent reply I couldn't face writing but CC's posts are definitely written from blissful ignorance.

Tony

Interesting video John there was a similar one about crankshafts not long ago . I suspect some of our cheaper machine components are made in the same way!

Tony,

Unless an exporter has 'on the spot' representatives monitoring the product material and processes on a daily routine the supplier will inevitably backslide to maximise their profit. The Chinese mentality is there is only one winner in a business deal and they are determined that it will be them and not the exporter / customer. They have no concept of 'win/win' in a deal only that which is 'win / lose' and it is not going to be they who lose!

This goes for India as well, Rolls Royce have a facility in Tamil Nadu which manufactures gears (Ashanti Gears Ltd,. ) for their engines. They have 12 inspectors on site full time to ensure quality and adherence to specifications. Boeing have a carbon fibre associate facility in Mumbai (Madras) which also has on site Boeing personal to ensure the products are to specification. The earlier discussion in another thread on Holbrook 10B lathes which were made in India at the Alfred Herbert associate factory had UK staff seconded on a three year rotation to oversee the quality and processes were adhered to. I doubt that any of the ME suppliers in the UK have directly based employees at overseas factories as it would increase their overheads and nullify their cost advantages, this makes the 'quality' aspect of the product subject to the whims of the overseas producers and their basic honesty. Admittedly, there seems to be a willingness by the UK based suppliers to take back poor product and this is surely a reflection on their inability to control what comes out of the factories, but reflects the need to protect a reputation. Good 'on them' for at least doing that - woe betide anyone who buys junk off Alibaba or Ebay!

Martin

At one time, my employers found that it was possible to buy a fully machined component from China for less than the cost of a raw casting in UK.

BUT, later a batch of another much larger and more complex casting arrived incorrectly machined. The bad news was that here was another shipload en route, and it would be six weeks before correct material could be shipped.

So, have a factory with around two thousand employees twiddling their thumbs, rather than being bproductive?

Shows the need for constant vigilance and supervision,

In my book, there is a lot to be said for self sufficiency where the minimum of material or utilities are under the control of someone abroad.

But it takes a long time to recover a situation like that.

And before anyone asks, my lathe is a far eastern product, but was specified by a Toolmaker, and seems to be, generally, of good or acceptable quality

Howard

Apologies for hijacking the thread, though it is relevant. Especially when it's the Warco 10% off weekend!

I have a Sieg SX3 mill and wondered:

1) Is a 6" rotary table recommended or would you recommend a 4"

2) How does the Warco HV6 (Vertex style?) rotary table compare to the equivalent ArcEuro one, which is significantly more expensive? JasonB - I understand you use the ArcEuro one

3) Would the hole spacings allow the HV6 to be mounted vertically on the SX3? (Does anyone have the minimum and maximum hole centres for vertical mounting?)

Many thanks,

Mike

Edited By Mike Donnerstag on 04/12/2021 21:32:49

An aside now, but my Vertex HV6 came from Chronos, and has four Tee slots.

So then three slot ones have been cost reduced

"Our policy is one of continuous improvement"

Of what? Our Profit margins?

And before anyone starts sending flak, I have worked on Cost Analysis, and brought about cost reductions, so have seen both sides of the coin!

Howard

On monday I am buying a Vertex VA4 milling vice 20kg(Taiwan) for double the price of a similar looking chinese one(I think 19Kg), so I hope its ok.

6" for the SX3 and X3 size machines.

The 72:1 gearing of the arc one seems to suit common dividing using the handwheel more than a 90:1. Being able to set the 360deg ring on the ARC one in any position is a useful feature. Grub screws are best replaced and the spindle adjusting lockring could be better. Being a right hand mount when in vertical mode you have to watch the quill handles.

Can't comment on the Warco as I also have a 6" Soba which has also served me well, but if slots are the same spacing then I use 1 slot and one clamp when in vertical mode.

I like 4 slots as you can mount your vice easily on the rotary table

Bought a 4" rotary table last spring, from a brandless Indian source (ebay). Well I paid for that, as it was so non accurate that I decided 6 month later to go for another one. I finally bought a Warco 4" model, I kept the 80mm self centering chuck which came with the indian one, as this was ok. With this combination I am now happy, but I threw about 60£ out of the window...

As in my starting posting, see first posting in this thread, I have the 6" Warco table and am delighted with it. Great finish and when adjusted, next to no play. Really smooth action.

The 6" Soba that I bought needed a little work to make it run properly. I soon noticed that the table bearing was very loose, allowing about 0.010" radial movement which really affected the accuracy. I replaced the needle roller bearing with a turned up aluminium bush which has 0.0005" clearance dry and none with lubrication. At the speed the RT turns, it will last forever.