(old) Proxxon BFW 36/E vs. (new) Proxxon BFW 40/E

I'm surpised to see the Unimat 3 recommended to meet a milling requitement. I have a Unimat SL/DB with a drilling/milling column... not the same but pretty similar. I am glad to have that option but it's far from ideal as a milling setup.

The column, combined with the limited quill travel makes life awkward - I usually need to move the head up or down the column one or more times per job in order to get tool clearance and reach the required depth. It is very easy to drop the heavy head and motor assembly when undoing the clamping screw... which means that it is safest to remove any drill or cutter beforehand.

There is no Z axis feed screw or dial - the lever is the only way to move in Z during the job... ideal for drilling... not so much for milling.

I'm still looking out for a milling table for mine but as far as I can see it overhangs the cross slide a good deal so rigidity between the table and bed seem likely to be compromised.

I have used it for actual milling very rarely - more to prove a point than because it was a good option. I mainly use it for drilling.

Looking at the Uni 3 pictures I suspect that most of the SL/DB shortcomings will still be there. Maybe I'm wrong, perhaps a Uni 3 owner could comment.

As others have said, I think your expectations for capacity and metal removal rate (both implying rigidity) are in conflict with your requirement for small size and weight.

My own research into whether there is a proper mill that sits between the MF70 and the smallest Sieg turned up the Cowells mill, the Taig and the Sherline. All three are probably above the curve in terms of price when compared with the MF70 and the Sieg. I did not look at the less tiny Proxxons. My own decision was to abandon any attempt to find something in that middle ground. Small scale milling happens on my MF70, anything bigger on a lathe and vertical slide - either my Cowells or my Faircut which occupies most of the available bench space in my shed. A lathe and v.slide bring plenty of challenges though compared to a proper mill.

A friend of mine lives in an apartment building is more space constrained than me. She has extensively modified her MF70 (in stages). Its current incarnation has the Usovo ER11 spindle, her own design of drive to reduce the spindle speed plus CNC including new feed screws and anti backlash nuts on X and Y.

The U3 has an optional fine feed attachment for the quill so quite easy to set depths to reasonable accuracy. Although they will never remove metal at the rate of a bridgeport I managed to make a Stuart 10V on mine which runs quite smoothly and will even turn over if you blow into the inlet though I can't keep that up for too long.

The reason the U3 has been suggested here is it fits the price the OP wants to pay and is a darn site better than the Proxxon. Sherline have already been suggested but over budget.

Jason B, Quite so, and the operation described can be achieved at one depth setting, hence repeatability of alignment is not an issue. Further for better or worse you gain a lathe with loads of accessories and all in a very tiny package which also seems to be an issue.

Robert Butler

It is possible to produce a small milling machine of high performance …

but they are usually (a) quite heavy, and (b) reassuringly expensive.

This one is a horizontal, and weighs 48kg … it would also be beyond your current budget, John.

**LINK**

https://www.nielsmachines.com/en/jean-greub-precision-watchmaker-milling-machine-o.html

That said : Perhaps we should be taking this as design inspiration for a DIY assembly based on readily available components. … The machine is, conceptually, simple enough.

MichaelG.

[EDIT: I see other members have posted whilst I was writing all of what follows!]

JasonB - yes I tried putting "unimat3 mill" into google, just now.
www.google.com/search?q=%22unimat3+mill%22
It yields precisely 3 results.

However "unimat 3 mill" ==> 6800 results


OK I've had a long look at the EMCO Unimat 3. I can see that it is a charming, super-compact, well-made... amazing bit of design. It also has an excellent spec (if you upgrade the motor) and the whole EMCO Unimat series still seem to have a bit of a cult following amongst hobbyists.

However, I can see a whole warren of rabbit holes opening up! You are asking me to buy something that was made between 1976 and 1990 - at least 30 years old, and no longer in production.

(ASIDE: If it really is so good, why is it no longer in production?)

Obviously being so old, it will of course have no technical support. Bearings are likely to need re-greasing and rubber belts probably will need to be replaced... sourcing accessories that match is likely to be will be tricky...

==> All-in-all, I can see it being a HUGE time-sink.

My main concerns:

1. Z-direction repeatability
Because the pillar is circular without a key slot of any sort, every time you loosen off the clamping screws in order to move the mill in the Z-axis (vertical), the whole thing can rotate around the pillar!
[Can one buy better pillars that DO have key-slots?]

2. Round Pillar
Given the huge lateral forces during milling operations and given the circular cross-section of the pillar, I am guessing you will need to clamp the thing extremely tight if mere friction will be enough to stop the mill from rotating around the pillar, no?

Presumably if you try to only mill directly to or from the pillar that would help, but that seems like an annoying constraint

3. Small point: No feed screw to wind it up and down with.

4. Milling table seems extremely small.

I am bit confused about the original "Unimat 3" range. Was this much larger milling table sold as a separate product? Also can one buy large milling tables that would be fitted to the "Unimat 3" from other suppliers?

Given the lack of other options, I'm not ruling the Unimat 3 out, however best guess is that it is a much better lathe than it is a milling machine and like I keep sayin' it is the latter that I actually want!

J

Edited By John Smith 47 on 29/09/2021 23:01:12

Anyone suggested a surface grinder yet?

John Smith 47 said:

"If it really is so good, why is it no longer in production?"

That's a really good example of what's known as a false dichotomy.

Oh Dear. You said you had not found a single Picture, I thought it would have been obvious that when you do that Google search you click the "IMAGE" tab and then get plenty of photos including ones with the motor attached to the mill. Thousands more as you scrol down the page!

Reason it is no longer made is that it would price itself out of the market if they tried to make it the same today, most people will just spend less on a larger imported machines making the potential market too small to be worth production.

Don't recall having problems with the head moving under milling loads provided you remember it's a light machine and to use light cuts.

Fine feed is done with an allen key in the dial but I have seen simple handwheels fitted around the socket as there is little load when adjusting height.

Always managed to line the head up OK and it's as easy to just slacken the clamp and slide it quickly up and down as cranking away on the dovetail column mills which take a lot more effort and time to raise & lower the heads

You bottom image is of the dedicated mill not the lathe with mill column as has been suggested but I see the item is now sold so you have missed out. I expect another forum member saw the link and jumped at the good deal.

Edited By JasonB on 30/09/2021 07:17:25

You can lead a horse to water ....................

It was thinking more of the other saying, something to do with abusing a dead horse

Can't understand why John got 3 results and I get 268,000 using the same "unimat3 mill" search, maybe that slow computer again.

.

That’s easy, Jason:

John searched thus …

.

.

MichaelG.

Ah, maybe you could give him some Google and grammar lessons

.

John only did as instructed, Jason
 

Tricky stuff, Grammar 

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 30/09/2021 13:07:17

I was quoting the text that I entered for my search, how should I have written it ?

He also entered "unimat 3 mill" for his own search (his inverted commas)

@Michael Gilligan
Re: Jean Greub Milling Machine
The link says: "Mill Machine without ground plate and motor 20Kg"
It certainly shows what is technically possible... As does (in some ways) the Unimat 3.
I can't find a Jean Greub for sale.

@Grindstone Cowboy
Re Surface grinder - Sounds too specialist. A significant part of spending money on this project is to end up with some general purpose tools that can be used on other projects.

@Bill Phinn
> That's a really good example of what's known as a false dichotomy.
WTF? I never said, never implied and never meant that it was a dichotomy.

@JasonB
I guess I should have said - yes, I did (eventually) find multiple photos of the motor on the grinder.

@JasonB - OK fair point. Mea culpa... Movin' too fast!
That said, had you meant me to include the double quotes in my search, exactly how would you have done your grammar?

Re why it is no longer manufactured, those reasons seem reasonable, although given how many people moan about the quality of the Proxxon kit, how many people are buying upgraded engines & spindles and how many fans there are of defunct EMCO kit, this may well be erroneous thinking. I may be in a market of one but I would have paid double or even TRIPPLE the price of an MF70 to buy a properly made MF70.

Yes, it's a slight shame that the Unimat 3 seems to have been sold. But there is no point in this horse drinking from an infected well or eating totally the wrong food.

Right now my requirement is not dead urgent. I shall soldier on with the MF70 and Ferrex belt & disk sander as best I can.

But I shall definitely keep an eye out for second hand EMCO Unimat 3s for sale. Where are the best websites to search?

J

PS There is a
"Emco Unimat Milling Machine - Watchmaker Tools - With Accessories" on sale on eBay for £1100. Looks perfect but this is well outside my budget. What do you think it will go for?

Michael might mean syntax or semantics rather than grammar, but it may help internet search engine users to know there's a big difference between searching for

unimat3 mill

and

"unimat3 mill"

The first form helpfully opens the search up by looking for anything with unimat, unimat3, unimat 3, and/or mill in it. As this openness finds a lot of matches, the search engine uses other algorithms to put what the user is most likely to want on the front page. For example, pages that contain unimat3 and mill and have been read by many different users will be near the top, while unpopular pages that only mention mill once will be at the bottom.

Fuzzy searching mostly does a good job, but the method isn't perfect! Quite often users only want to see exact exact matches only. One way of specifying this is to put the search term inside quotes marks: the quotes tell the search engine to only return pages containing that exact phrase. In tight-mode the search engine may warn of typical user typos, which is why Google asked in this case 'Did you mean "unimat 3 mill"? (Yes!)

MEW or ME did an article recently about advanced search techniques: sorry I can't remember which. Worth reading when searching the internet for specific targets, which is a common requirement in technical subjects. There's a degree of art in it as well. Apart from knowing how to drive advanced search engine options, the way a query is assembled can make a big difference too. In the complicated world we live in getting the best out of search engines is yet another skill most of us don't have - common sense fails again!

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 30/09/2021 15:33:11

It's part of the nature of logical fallacies that people commit them without being aware they're doing so. This instance is no exception.

.

Michael actually used the word to describe the inclusion [by Jason] of the suggested search terms within quotation marks … I see that as a matter of Grammar; but call it what you will, Dave.

The work-around for this would have been for Jason to write :

put "unimat3 mill" [without quotation marks] into google

… or some-such

MichaelG.

The question that I asked - about exactly why the product hasn't been made now for however many decades it is - was entirely reasonable and potentially relevant, and I did so with my eyes open and in the knowledge that the answer may well not materially affect my buying decision.

The real logical fallacy is that you appear to have thought that it might do so!

But go ahead, call the nature of my thinking whatever you like, if it makes you feel better. Just don't expect any name-calling to in any way affect my decision making. It won't.

OK enough. I'm not going to discuss logical fallacies any further.

I have just heard back from the eBay seller. He says he had a Unimat mill sell last year for "£650 without a motor" and so now he wants £850 for it.

It may be a fair price(?), but I just don't have that sort of money. At a pinch I would have gone to £500 but no further. I think I'll just have to wait for a rustier one!

[At the risk of another False Equivalence, I could have bought x3.4 Proxxon MF70s for £850! ]