Increasing cost of entry into model engineering

Unfortunately, with India, it will turn into a prostitute market (some of it already is) with every man and his dog out bidding each other in the 'I can make it cheaper' basket... delivering 'ugly'. This has already started with certain Indian makers and dealers who supply to well known U.K. dealers, having their own, uncle, cousin, sons operating in three to four different names on eBay, selling off their regular, surplus, rejects. I even know from fact that when they are challenged about this, some of them plead ignorance, some are arrogant, and no amount of feed will fulfill some of their greed. So, there is joy and more joy to come our way. Morals/ethics are in small supply.

With the Chinese, a 'small' factory comprises of around 30~50 people. In India, a small factory comprises of around 3~10 people, in addition to 100 desk based factories... so small inconsistent limited runs of whatever quality you want are possible at short notice. Great example of this at present is 'boring heads'. Most dealers were dependent on a particular small factory in India, which generally made a consistent product - good for the price paid. Father and older son of that factory had a difference of opinion and parted company. Father increased prices by 50%. I pleaded with the father (through my Indian handlers) to sit back and let the elder son run the show. Idea was declined as father wanted to stay in his old way, suggesting that he was the only one who knew how to make the product, working with his younger son. All dealers went running to four to five different 'new' makers. All of them produce shit, which most model engineers are buying happly off eBay because the price is so cheap, because 'I can do it cheaper' prostitute business has won. Father of the original factory had a heart attack, elder son came back to help father and younger brother, prices coming back to within reason from them, but may be a little too late?

This is just one example of Indian product - shifted by certain people on eBay. There are plenty of such examples.

Ketan at ARC.

One of my ME clubs doesn't have permanent premises suitable for a wokshop, the other is hoping to have a workshop, but with a 50 mile round trip for me it would be impractical to rely on that.

Workshops do present additional insurance HSE and security problems. At my Men's Shed I have just had to change insurers when I said we were installing electricity for light and heating so metal working machines would have given then kittens.

That's not that much. About 6% increase per annum over 7 years. Half of that would be accounted for by inflation. So real price has risen about 3 per cent a year. Tools and equipment are still way more affordable than they ever were 20 or 30 years ago or more.

That's why the old ME and early MEW mags were stuffed full of articles on how to make your own milling slide, dividing head, drill press, rotary table, toolpost, revolving centre and so forth. Not because guys were looking for a project to make, but because making your own was the only way many ordinary fellows were ever going to get one. They were prohibitively expensive to buy for many. And your own milling machine, well that was the stuff of fantasy for most.

These days, I have found I can buy a 4" rotary table from China cheaper than buying a piece of 4" x 1" square BMS and a piece of 4" round BMS locally plus a worm and wheel to make my own. And who would bother to make a Quorn T&C grinder when you can buy quite good quality new end mill cutters  for tuppence h'appeny all day long, or a Chinese T&C grinder for less than the cost of a Quorn casting kit?

And I could buy a hobby mill from our local equivalent of Arc for less than the cost of the big screen TV that has nowadays become the standard in every home (except mine!).

The hobby has never been more affordable, IMHO.

Edited By Hopper on 25/07/2018 09:04:34

Try Walker Midgley the specialist insurers who advertise in ME, they insure numerous model engineering clubs

We used to have specialist brokers for the Wildlife Trusts, no-one could touch their prices because they understood the market and the real rates of claims etc. - other brokers had kittens at the thought of volunteers using chainsaws etc., completely ignoring that the training and safety regime was excellent.

Neil

'Currently' dropped from £771 to £735.00 incl.VAT = around $970.20 Incl.VAT or $808.50 excl.VAT.... cheaper by about $10.50 against LMS's old price... as their prices do not include taxes.

Ketan at ARC.

Edited By Ketan Swali on 26/07/2018 13:47:10

Oh, and if anyone looking at cost of entry into model engineering, 'currently' there is a great bundle for under £500.00 on the SX1L mill... which is fully loaded with a great vice, collets, clamping kit, some end mills, and cutting fluid, to get you started.

Ketan at ARC

And just for balance my recent posts and videos show what pot luck it is buying from Bangood etc with the poor results the cutter gave as supplied. Worked OK after spending more money than it originally cost on it and correcting the run out.

For small items of tooling it may be worth the risk as its only a few quid lost but would you buy a mill from them?

Edited By JasonB on 27/07/2018 07:05:24

A great value has to be put on the shear pleasure of owning and using the equipment and the satisfaction of making/repairing something. I tend to add stuff to my workshop on a regular basis for very little money a full set of 5C collets bought one or two at a time are priceless for the convenience, some only cost £5 or less and are more than good enough for my use.

In the 1960s I saved up to buy a Unimat lathe. I'm fairly sure it cost £56 at the time, or about 4 weeks wages. I believe the average wage now is around £500. Four weeks wages today would buy a pretty good new lathe and a small mill . . .

Mike.

Don't forget many video reviewers have links to buying the products they review, these generate them a modest but regular income, sop don't assume they are entirely neutral.

The bigger UK suppliers regularly go to China and have ongoing dialogues with the factories about specs and quality.

Unfortunately this is one of the costs that adds to the price of buying from UK based suppliers along with customer support, import duties, VAT, returns, spares, stockholding, warehousing, premises and showroom costs, staff costs, CE testing and certification, WEEE, advertising... all of which online sellers can avoid.

Neil

Without the likes of ARC or Axminster etc I would suspect few here would ever have a 'new' mill or lathe. Same with machine vices, rotary tables, dividing heads, tool grinders, quick change toolposts, angle plates or a myriad of other things. In the past they'd spend years (or even decades) machining a set of raw castings often following a series lasting dozens of issues in the magazines and then at the end maybe forget why they made them in the first place. Old machinery is also quite simply way too big for many home workshops, something compact is usually all many actually need. Something heavier and bigger with significantly more stiffness would always be better though.

Despite the immediate additional cost I'd sooner buy much (but not all) of what I need locally than trust a supplier thousands of miles away with a dubious or non existent return policy. But when you can buy the identical item to that sold by a UK supplier for 60% of the price, delivered within two or three weeks you wonder how sustainable in the long term the UK pricing model is.

I always used to buy stuff at the ME shows. I remember when there was a decent number of traders there going round looking for a particular item in the £25 ball park. I found 3 stands with the same item all at different prices but then went round again looking at the quality. Only in this situation with quick access to the actual product could I see why one trader had paid more for his stock. So I gladly bought the most expensive. You just don't get this opportunity anymore so need to go by the traders' reputation.

An interesting thing you can compare easily if you have all within a mile as I do is between Toolstation, Screwfix, Wickes, B&Q who all sell the 'same' thing. I got a throw away folding bench for peanuts from Toolstation. Putting it beside my B&Q one it was an inch shorter, the top was two inches shorter and made of cheese, and the metal was thin and half the weight.

My lathe and mill are both Chinese, bought from SPG 2 years ago and I am a happy camper. I live in France and before I bought did a very thorough research of not just the offerings in the UK but in France and the countries around me. What became very apparent was that pretty much the same products were being sold by many European vendors but at much higher prices than their equivalents in the UK, plus generally with a poor accessories spec with them. Delivery form the UK was very reasonable and quick.

Martin 100 makes the very valid point "Without the likes of ARC or Axminster etc I would suspect few here would ever have a 'new' mill or lathe."

Buying what I did at the prices offered, enabled me to fulfill a 40 year ambition and have new equipment as well.

It is not just the free tool that a youtuber will get, I think Youtube pays about $7 per 1000 views so with something like 50K subscribers that can be quite a nice income even if only 10K watch.

There may be a risk that if you give too many negative reviews then you may not get sent anything else so nothing for that weeks video so no income.

Point taken about the bad reviews and so forth. However, if I watch someone who is taking a heavy cut on a piece of stainless round bar and the insert is performing well, then I can choose to buy that tool. If he does something else with another tool and it doesn't perform, then I don't buy it. That is the risk taken out of it for me.

If the tools don't perform then they fail the review. There is very little you can do to fake that. OK so you tubers get a small income from making and editing videos. I get a great deal of pleasure from watching them and I get a lead to a good supply of tools. I don't begrudge them the income, wish I could do the same. Pay for bits for your shop by making a few videos, be great.

Look in the description of any Bangood review video. You will see a set of links, hover over these to see how the full URL contains a lot of extra information.

Click on that link and buy, and the reviewer will get commission.

Edited By Carl Wilson 4 on 27/07/2018 15:56:15