Member postings for Dave Wootton

I worked at a small engineering works which had some old but wonderful machines, Holbrooks, Thiel mills, and other quality machines in there original paint. We all went away for two weeks for the annual shutdown, returning to find the new so called " Millwright" had daubed all the machines in the shop I worked in a hideous mid blue, his idea of an overhaul. I can still recall the horror on entering the workshop on the first morning back, and the look of thunder on the works managers face. The change of colour and the pitiable appearance of the machines really put me off the job and changed the whole outlook of the working environment, I left soon after. Since that time I've had a horror of machines repainted in mid blue!

I had a very similar one a few weeks ago, purporting to be from BT, I deleted it thinking it was a scam and my email is still working ok. So even if it's genuine it can't be that important. Everyone and his dog seems to be trying to scam you these days!

Dave

I thought Reeves, but my friend has one built from their castings in the 60's and it has a much more substantial base casting than the one pictured. But there could have been variations over the years.

I've got one of the small Champion ones left to me by a good friend and mentor, lovely little machine, one of my most treasured possessions, drill holes well too!

Dave

I think Chris is correct if it's the same as the Thiel 158 there is a geared coolant pump under the gearbox. The machine looks ok inside, worth checking the oil seals in the base of the gearbox where the feed drive shaft exits. Hopefully possible to change without dismantling everything. As I said in my previous post mine had to have every oil seal changed as they were all rock hard and deteriorating. But it had stood for years in a tin barn and had been cooked every summer and frozen every winter! Hopefully yours should be ok, worth checking with some oil before you get too involved, as it has no oil in it it may well have leaked over a long period of time, if it is not too bad I think I'd be tempted to live with it .

One idea I saw on the net somewhere when I was looking up this sort of mill regularly was in a US machine shop that had a superbly equipped one. They had a trolley stands with the various tables on them and could wheel it into place and lower the table on it to remove and change with no lifting. Obviously they had plenty of space to store them, but a clever idea, probably safer than a crane. Looks like you did OK with that machine, look forward to seeing your progress.

I have made a ER30 collet adaptor out of ordinary FCMS with no hardening, It's not been used intensively , only home workshop use but it still works fine after ten years or so. Always careful to clean everything before use , as it is unhardened and could be damaged by trapped swarf.

Dave

Myford did indeed supply Crompton 1/2 hp motors for the ML7 with whitemetal bearings, I've not long ago sorted out the centrifugal switch on one, definitely supplied by Myford in the early/mid 60's. Gave it a strip down and dust out and checked the bearings which were whitemetal and despite much use were in good order. I had a later ML7 from the 70's at one time and the Crompton motor on that was fitted with oilite bearings, so both were used at various times. The whitemetal one had flip top oilers and from memory the oilite one had ball oilers.

Dave

Edited By Dave Wootton on 29/06/2023 15:45:20

Edited By Dave Wootton on 29/06/2023 15:46:03

Thanks for posting the link, very interesting finding out how things stand in other countries, seems that type of mill is more common there than in the UK. Very versatile style of machine, I hope you get on well with it, the accessories would as Chris says be very expensive and desirable for a Thiel here. If you rebuild it some posts on here would be of great interest. The motor , in a Thiel anyway, is in the base, belt driven to the main gearbox and is flange mounted, so would be easy to change for a modern one with inverter if you wanted to go down that route. The Thiel motor is 2.2HP 1500 RPM, I did at one time think of changing it for an inverter driven one, but with a pilot motor on a static converter the machine ran fine. The pilot motor was fitted at the recommendation of transwave the makers of my static converter, evidently the starting load to detach the brake cone was too much without the pilot. The instant braking was a great feature. I have got some rather scrappy information on the Thiel including a wiring diagram if it's any help I can scan it to you, just send your email address. The price seems a bit of a bargain with the accessories so don't blame you for buying it.

Dave

That does put a whole new spin on things!!! Collection could prove difficult and expensive.

Are machines readily available in Romania? just out of interest, I was wondering whether the Chinese machines are available as easily as here, and if there was a market in ex industrial machinery. Always interested in how other countries do things. My son is a professional musician and regularly visits Romania and says it is a spectacularly beautiful place.

I'm sure you are aware that this could have a marked bearing on the desirability of the pictured mill.

Dave

Me again!

Just noticed that in the classifieds under the heading various there is in the list an Alexander master toolmaker mill for sale, the smaller version of this style of machine, and a copy of the Deckel. Stated as being well tooled and running on an inverter. Might be of interest to you, I've bought something from Chris the seller in the past and he is a nice chap to deal with and very knowledgeable.

Dave

Been racking my brain to remember the make of the motor with inbuilt brake, it's a Demag and has a cone clutch on the end of the motor. The motor shaft is given some end float and is sprung loaded and when the motor is energised the rotor moves in towards the motor and away from the brake housing. the reverse happens when the power is switched off stopping the spindle very rapidly. Great feature that caused some consternation at first thinking the motor was siezed!

Dave

I've owned a Thiel 158, it was an excellent machine for the use I needed it for, to cut fairly chunky gears on, and indeed was an really well built and versatile machine. I bought it very cheaply as it had been standing for years, inside but not in ideal conditions, and although in good order there were a few problems to be overcome. The machine was bought for the specific purpose of doing some heavy milling and gear cutting for a traction engine project, which it did very well. It was then sold on to a friend who still uses it for traction engine building.

I'm not trying to discourage, but these and the clones ( which I think this is) which follow the basic design quite closely, are a fairly complex machine, I had to replace all the oil seals in the feed and main gearboxes, which entailed a lot of dismantling and was very time consuming. The original main motor contains an automatic cone brake as used in small cranes, and will not run on a standard phase converter without a pilot motor. If you are looking for a fairly long term project then after some hard work you would have a superb heavy duty milling machine, power feed in all directions. I'm used to working on machine tools and found it a surprisingly long job and I was not fully resoring it just making it leak free ( every seal on the machine had turned rock hard with age) and suitable for the work in hand.

Not as I say trying to discourage, just pointing out that this is quite a major undertaking to do properly, it's a heavy thing, do you want a mill or a major project?. As someone stated above the condition is a bit of a gamble so I would not pay too much for it if you decide to go for it. Mine was a few hundred quid so not a major risk financially, but there was a fair amount of time had to be invested in it. There was a chap making replacement spindles for the vertical heads to convert to 40 int from the I think 5mt original ( might be 4 mt, can't remember!) mine had already been done. If you do buy it you can always PM me as there are some traps for the unwary that I can vaguely still remember!

Dave

It would be really interesting if a definitive article was to result from the researches being carried out. Julian is obviously a very thorough researcher, and with the valid points raised by some of our other contributors would be something well worth reading.

I've certainly lost a few hours this afternoon reading the links in the above posts, all fascinating stuff, always impressed by the range of knowledge our contributors posess.

I did find the original article in MEW very interesting.

Dave

Keeping me out of the workshop though, i've got a shaper rebuild to finish!

Edited By Dave Wootton on 19/06/2023 18:30:55

I must agree with Weary about being impressed by the research, I know only the very basics of radio, but am finding this thread absolutely fascinating. I am amazed at the amount of information and references that have been found for something that happened so long ago. Please keep this one going!

Dave

Hi Dave

Just had a look at the Simplex book and Martin Evans is silent on the subject of springs as far as I can see, certainly nothing in the section dealing with the rolling chassis. The springs are very easy to shorten on the bench grinder, so you could buy the longer ones and shorten them once you have the axleboxes mounted in the frames.

Will need adjusting once the loco is completed and standing on it's own six wheels at it's finished weight, so final trimming and adjustment can be done then.

If you look on the Reeves site under springs there are two prices for apparently identical springs the higher price ones are in 12's the cheaper in 10's, it is not clear until you actually click on the item. which might explain why i bought 20 springs!

Dave

Finished making and fitting the dials from Hoppers excellent article in MEW, adapted slightly to fit a shaper the basic design follows the published drawings. Indexing of the graduations was done using the hacksaw blade ratchet detent from the article. I had to fiddle about with the change gears a bit to do it on my 254 as the changewheel arrangement is different, but with a couple of idlers in there it all worked out fine. The ratchet idea was so much easier than the fraught time spent graduating a small rotary table with a dividing head. Numbers were stamped in a GHT pillar tool as the fittings for stamping were already made, one great tip in the article is using masking tape for initially setting up the stamping, a very slight but seeable impression can be made in the tape.There was one bozo moment when I put the stamp in the jig 90deg out, but a drop of soft solder and some filing and it can't be seen easily. Pictures show the dials fitted to my Acorn shaper which is undergoing a rebuild, had to make a narrow ring to carry the fiducial mark for the cross feed, the only modification needed was two small tapped holes to retain this. The downfeed dial is tapped 3/8 BSF as was the original. Altogether a very interesting little job that was a pleasant change from all the cleaning and painting. Well done Hopper!

Edited By Dave Wootton on 09/06/2023 17:53:03

Hi Ash

I believe it is to deter the scammers and prevent them easily obtaining the advertisers contact information. This site has thankfully stayed fairly free of that sort of thing.

Just a post or two about you or one of your interests or projects is all it takes.

Dave

edited for sausage finger spelling again!

Edited By Dave Wootton on 08/06/2023 16:33:12

Edited By Dave Wootton on 08/06/2023 16:36:04

Thanks for your email Douglas, much appreciated, reply sent.

Dave

Much cheaper too!

I notice that's an EPL 24 yet it has a 25mm bore, I might have missed that as I'm sure I searched for an EPL25, never mind it all worked fine with a little adjustment.

Edited By Dave Wootton on 05/06/2023 17:19:20

Just been out and reassembled both dials with their respective hubs, washers and circlips, just to check the feel of the adjustment, and found the action to be pretty much the same as the factory dials on my 254, so I don't thnk the dimensions I've given above are too far off. couple of pictures of both the dials fitted together and of one fitted to the cross feed on the shaper.

I'm in the middle of making a pair of these dials using the W61510 wave washer from Bearing Boys, The wave washer supplied must be slightly different to the ones it is designed for. The wave measured .100" instead of the .125" stated in the article, and my impression is that the washer is a bit less wavy and a bit more weedy than the design one. After a bit of experimentation on a dummy hub I've made the .220" length on the hub drawing .260" and the step that the wave washer fits over .040" long instead of the specified .080". This gives what I feel is the right amount of resistance whilst adjusting ok, might have made the adjustment a little stiffer than some might like but in this case I think it suits the application. It's to fit a shaper rather than a lathe, so some of the hub details have been altered, but otherwise everything else is to the published drawings and it all goes together well. Just something to bear in mind if using the wave washers supplied by Bearing Boys. Their service was excellent, washers and circlips arrived morning after ordering. Graduation and stamping next, I made some spare dials, just in case!

Dave

Edited By Dave Wootton on 05/06/2023 13:33:09

Edited By Dave Wootton on 05/06/2023 13:34:56