March cutter Grinder

Hello All,

I work for a machine tool sales company, second hand a new,

In the back of one of the sheds I found a , March MK3 cutter grinder, 7-8 years back, it was taken in part exchange for a new machine, it was put in the shed and there it stayed, until I came across it , asked my boss what are you going to do with it, I could not believe it when he said it's all going for scrap, and said if you want it ,take it, it's in quite good condition, not overly rusty , I had break it down make three trips to get it home, very heavy for a relatively small machine,

I was thinking on converting it to a milling machine, but the more I look at the machine, it would seem a shame , so I have decided it needs to be totally restored.

There seems to be loads of information regarding the Clarkson MK1 and MK2 cutter grinders, but hardly anything on the March MK3, the one I have

what sort of Price do they fetch?

Regards

lee

Looking on the Lathes website it seems they are a rebadged Clarkson so probably worth similar. I certainly wouldn't convert it to a mill, it would be better to sell / swap it for the real thing.

I'm surprised a dealer didn't want to sell it, even knackered gear gets snapped up.

As ever the actual value is defined by the condition and how complete the tooling pack with the machine is.

The Mk3 is bigger and much more sophisticated than the earlier versions and, when new cost about 3 times as much. Realistically the basic machine, sans accessories, isn't of great value. Doesn't help that proper Mk3 tool holders et al are rare.

Running Mk1 and Mk2 variants in OK order without significant kit go for around £150 - £250 on E-Bay or via the grapevine. Start adding bits and the price climbs rapidly. Can get approaching £3,000 for fully equipped ones with the air bearing flute grinder, drill and tap sharpener and radius attachment as well as the more basic holders. Seems that tooling equipment prices are upwards from £100, even for something as simples as centres, so replacing what's missing gets expensive, fast.

Although I suspect the sophisticated stuff in Home Shop / ME hands is more for bragging rights than use. A radius grinder "nearly complete" came with mine but I've never used it and certainly wouldn't pony up the £200 odd that seems to be the going rate. The drill sharpener was worth its £100 tho', in spades.

Bottom line is that the basic machine probably isn't worth more than around £300. Its the tooling and holders that will drive the price. Fully equipped, in good order ready to plug in and go you might get approaching £4,000. I'm guessing it went into the shed because all the tooling went AWOL or was sold separately. Frankly I suspect that a dealer could get rather more for tooling alone than for a machine complete with bits so it may well have been asset stripped.

Clive

Edited By Clive Foster on 11/09/2021 09:33:15

Clive is spot on ! Where as Mk1 and 2 share many attachments, The Mk3 is different machine and I believe uses dedicated toys. Without it's basic set of toys, tooth rests, centres and universal head, it's little more than an expensive pedestal grinder !, A bare Mk3 if 3ph £150. Good luck Noel

Noel may be unduly pessimistic as to interchangeability of toys between Mk 1 - 2 Clarkson / March machines and the Mk 3.

The is no doubt that the Mk 3 toys are rather better and more sophisticated than the Mk 1 - 2 versions but I'm pretty sure the Mk 1  - 2 ones can physically fit. Possibly simple spacers may be needed in some cases.

But much of the advantage of the Mk 3 comes from its better toys.

The Mk 1 - 2 versions sold well due to being relatively inexpensive and able to do routine machine shop sharpening duties with relatively limited kit given an adequately skilled operator. Although they can do a useful proportion of the work that a full blown tool and cutter grinder handles they were never first choice for a full blown tool and cutter grinding set up handing wide ranges of specialised tools.

The Mk 3 is more upmarket hence better toys.

Even if you use / adapt Mk 1 - 2 toys they are still individually expensive. I'm a little surprised that no one has settled down and drawn the basic range up for home building. Considering the more advanced ones the air bearing flute grinder and radius attachment are perhaps a bit ambitious but the drill & tap sharpener may just about be worth it now 6 jaw chucks of adequate quality can be got for around £100 - £150.

Clive

Edited By Clive Foster on 11/09/2021 11:05:08

Thanks for the replies,

What come with it is.. the Center support Brackets , radius Grinding fixture in it's own metal box , a universal Head, and cutter grinder bodies for the air bearing, which was not there,, but there was various other brackets ,don't know what they are for though, the cutter grinder bodies, that I would call mandrels, have their own metal box and it's a full set ,with the collets but there was no Air bearing in the box , or maybe it had it's own box , I will have to have a good search around in the shed

Clive , where I work, we mainly deal in CNC machines,, the cheapest machine in there go for about eighteen grand, all the way up to tens of thousands, the older stuff ,couple of hundred or thousand are from machine shop clearances, the place shuts down, and we have to have everything in there, the older stuff can get buried sometimes ,when nobody make inquires , can stay there for a few years, my boss concentrates on the high price machines high profit margins ,pay the rent and our wages, he does also like old machines and will have them in the showroom with the newer stuff , he has a schaublin 102 on its original cabinet ,in real nice condition, he has been offered money for it, but he wont sell it.

Back to the March MK3 cutter grinder, do I restore it to back to showroom condition, or do what I was going to do , make a milling machine out of it?

Thanks

lee

I would restore and sell for a pretty penny, then buy a milling machine

Tony

Lee

Sounds like you have a goodly selection of toys to go with it so it would be an attractive buy.

To my mind the universal head with cutter holders and the drill sharpener are the most attractive toys for home shop and ME folks. Sharpening the pointy end of drills and the ends of end-mills being the sort of thing that becomes routine. Doing side flutes et al not so needful as we rarely take super deep cuts putting lots of wear on the side flutes quickly and the change in size can be tricky to deal with.

Unless its really scruffy I'd just clean it up nicely, make sure there are no extra goodies in the shed, and price to sell expecting something in the £1,500 to £2,000 region. A serious purchaser ought to be happy. Its the sort of level I could fund if I were looking. But I already have a Mk1 and enough toys.

Tyre kickers will want you to give it away with a pretty red ribbon round it. Odds are you could get significantly more if its really nice and well smartened up but it may take a long time for the right customer to arrive.

Its not strong enough to make a useful milling machine.

Clive

Edited By Clive Foster on 11/09/2021 17:48:14

Clive, out of interest, what part of this machine is lacking the strength to perform the job of a milling machine,

It has a very heavy large diameter rise and fall column, at around 4 3/4 inch , under the control a heavily built bevel gear, large diameter acme threaded bar going through a large Bronze nut, easily the size you find under the knee of a Bridgeport, the base everything sits on , is a very very heavy cast iron lump, the cupboards part, is made of heavy gauge steel ,the top has a steel plate welded on , got to be nearly 3/4 inch thick,

The spindle I can change, I do have a mini lathe headstock with taper roller bearings fitted, done that modification couple years back, making a milling machine out of it will have some head scratching fiddley parts , but with this machine most of it is nearly there.

Regards

lee

Edited By lee hawkins 1 on 12/09/2021 19:11:52

Lee,

"Orses for Courses" I would take the easy way out and clean it up and the toys, if needed and flog the lot for as much as it will fetch then use the dosh to get a real mill.

Of course it's your choice, if you want a shed load of work and headaches trying to convert it to a mill........ BTW, I dont want it so that's not why I reckon you ought to flog the lot for what you can.

Good luck in whatever decision you take

John

John,

Thanks for the advice , most appreciated, this is reason I posted on here to hopefully help me come to the right decision as to what to do with the machine

Regards

lee

lee

When it comes to machine tools the concept of "strength" is a very broad church.

Fundamentally tool & cutter and the other more sophisticated grinders are designed to deliver smooth accurate motion of the workpiece against light loads. Heavy build is normal to ensure things stay where they should be to within close limits and provide plenty of mass to absorb vibration.

Milling machines also need to provide smooth and accurate movements, although generally not to the more exacting standards of grinders. They need to cope with much more substantial cutting loads as well as absorb vibration so the overall layout has to be intrinsically more stiff.

The offset table rotation arrangement of the March / Clarkson is convenient and makes for a versatile machine but the table assembly is well overhung from the support and the connecting casting is not exceptionally strong. Fine for grinding where the heavy tables easily absorb any vibration and the cutting loads are small. Not so good for a milling machine where all the cutting loads on the workpiece have to pass through the relatively light connecting casting. Careful examination of how a March / Clarkson is made will show other issues too.

The two piece table arrangement isn't very convenient for a mill and only one axis has screw feed so significant work will be needed.

Were I to do a conversion I'd get one of the large, import, X-Y tables that can be got for around £100 - £200 to replace the complete table assembly. Hopefully accuracy would be adequate. Hopefully the head rise and fall will be stiff enough and move far enough to make it all work. Still be a small machine on a large base so the vast effort to sort things is unlikelt to be worthwhile.

Clive

Ok Clive , thanks for the advice, it is appreciated.

Not sure I would be able to find a large XY table for a couple of hundred quid though? anybody send a link for where to buy one at that price

Kind Regards

lee