Phosphor bronze vs SAE 660 bronze

The "words and music" for the Martin Evans designed Jubilee loco specify brass or preferably phosphor bronze for the oil pump body.

Having gotten to this stage I popped into a local (I am in Canada) metal supplier today looking to buy some phosphor bronze. The young man behind the counter who didn't seem too clued up, didn't seem to know what phosphor bronze was, but sold me a length of 660 bronze which he thought was the same thing. I bought a longer piece than needed thinking that I could use the excess for boiler fittings.

Once home, having second thoughts, I Googled 660 bronze only to find that it is SAE 660 bearing bronze which is leaded and intended for medium speed bearing use.
Would this be suitable for the oil pump body and/or boiler fittings. If not, as I can't return the piece and don't foresee any need for bearings in the near future, any suggestions for what else I could use it for would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Clive

Edited By clivel on 16/07/2015 05:32:16

I don't think that you would have a problem using it for a loco pump and it is in fact recommended for pump components. It can be soft soldered but do not silver solder as it contains lead.

**LINK**

Mick

hi clive,

whilst i have seen SAE660 and colphos stated to be able to be silver soldered it is not something i would attempt, especially on boiler work for fittings or bushes etc.

brass would be quite ok for your oil pump and much easier to machine and drill the small holes etc. all the commercial mechanical ubricators ive come across use brass.

cheers,

julian

It's all a matter of how much lead. Colphos is 4% lead and the manufacturer states it is OK for silver solder. PB1A (old spec for leaded bronze) is I think 7% lead. The British Standard stated that it could only be silver soldered with special measures. I think the problem is that the lead boils out and contaminates the silver solder, but that might be rubbish. Drawn PB1 doesn't have lead, but is a right pain to machine, it closes up on the drill. Cast PB1 is OK but not that easily found in small sizes.

Despite this the Australian model boiler code says leaded bronze is OK for bushes, but I wouldn't risk it.

I once silver soldered some leaded bronze for a boiler fitting and the result seemed OK. When the boiler was fired up I noticed what I thought was a weep at the fitting joint. I remade the joint but to no avail as after a while I saw that water was actually seeping through the bronze! I think that I would agree with Duncan, that leaded bronze would be OK for bushes or in fact anything that was not brought to such a temperature as to boil out the lead.

Mick

Clive,

The 660 bronze will work fine for your pump body and for any low/medium speed bushings you may need to make in future with the leftovers. I'd use it before using brass. Some brass I've bought lately is really low quality. One rectangular bar actually split down the middle lengthways when I tried to drill it. The broken edges whoed a "cold shut" type defect where it had been forced together from two pieces. Garbage.

I've specified many machine parts professionally over many years in 660 bronze in industry and never had a problem with it. These include bushings, structural elements with a bearing function, and custom valves and pump parts. Generally 660 bronze is not considered a weldable or solder grade material, although it probably could be, in a pinch.

PhBr would be better for soldered boiler fittings. You can order PhBr from McMaster Carr or Small Parts Inc. in USA. It is expensive. Metal Supermarket can get PhBr by special order but in my local one it is difficult to get staff to pay attention long enough to order it and then call when it is in (and not sell it to someone else before you get there).

I'm in Waterloo Ontario, where in Canada are you? Private message me if you'd rather not put location details in the forum. (My German shepherd , alarm company, and shotgun are not too concerned) JD

Thanks every one for the really useful advice.

Jeff, I am in Vancouver, I did get my bronze from a nearby Metal Supermarket, however they never mentioned the possibility of getting phosphor bronze via special ordering, although given the small quantity I need it probably wouldn't be worth their while.
The last time I tried ordering anything from McMaster Carr was about two years ago, instead of sending my order they cancelled it and instead sent a rude note about not shipping to Canada. Have they since changed their policy?

Clive

Hi Clive,

Re: McMaster Carr - the short answer is "it depends". I had an account with them for 20 years, with no trouble. A few years ago (2007 I think) I ordered and had the same experience as you. In 2014 they emailed me and said they wanted to reinstate my account and would I like to place an order? I can't explain it. Anyway a few other friends have had mixed results ordering as individuals small qty's of stuff - some can order without any trouble but others can't. Since the 2007 trouble I have been piggybacking orders to McM Carr on large orders from a tool shop I do work for. They order thousands of $ worth a month so there is no problem with ordering for them.

I had been ordering from Small Parts Inc. up to a few years ago, and in fact the last time I placed an order it was for PhBr rod and stainless wire! However I am told they were bought by Amazon and many items are no longer available. They are now at the website http://www.componentsupplycompany.com/ and have been renamed. Not sure if they still sell PhBr.

Speedy Metals is USA may be able to help, especially if they have a branch in one of the Western states to keep ship costs lower to BC.

The grade probably best for solderability is 510 bronze. It;s a common PhBr grade.

Good luck with getting your PhBr. JD