Colour inside of frames

Just wondering if someone confirm for me please what colour the inside faces of the loco and tender frames on a BR Standard 7 (Britannia) should be. 3.5" gauge in this case, but that shouldn't make any difference. I have seen them red, orange, left in red oxide, but I believe they should be black. I will of course stand corrected if I am wrong. I wouldn't ask but unfortunately I don't have Oliver Cromwell parked in the back garden to go and refer to.

I recently acquired the part built frames for a 3.5" gauge Stanier 2-6-4T (Martin Evans Jubilee) which I would like to paint, but not having had the privilege of seeing a full size British loco in person, I have instead had to rely on photos. Unfortunately this has not been too helpful as models of Jubilee, mainly found on the Station Road Steam site, are far from consistent whether in BR or LMS liveries.

I do believe that some of the pre-grouping companies only used red inside the frames from behind the smokebox to as far back as the front of the firebox. But I have no idea as to how prevalent this colour scheme was and whether it continued into the BR days.

Personally I find the large red areas of the inside of the frames which are so visible on a small loco quite jarring, On full size locos the angle of view makes the red less visible and also much more subdued due to grime, grease and wear. So I am considering black, but even though it is my loco and I can paint it how I like, I would at least like it to have a passing semblance to the full size prototype.

Clive

I have to agree with everything you have said. Red/orange looks hideous on a small one. I was stood at the side of Evening Star in York museum a few weeks ago and all I could see was black - but then I didn't crawl under it for a better look!

Malcolm

In the days when locos were cleaned,I understand that frames and other components were painted red as it is easier to see any cracks in the steel.

hi clive,

in miniature once the boiler is the 'glaring' red can be hardly seen. around the firebox black in BR days, red otherwise except as below

hi michael,

BR used signal red for inside of frames, though there is a lot of evidence that some of the 9Fs had black on the inside of the frames depending where they were built. 9F Evening Star in the NRM had a special finish applied by Swindon.

the Brits certainly had signal red on the inside of the frames.

cheers,

julian

Thanks

Hi Julian

That is correct the Brits where red and the 9F built at Swindon where red and built at Crew black.

Stan

Hi Julian,
As usual you are a mine of useful information
I am planning on finishing the loco in LMS unlined black livery something like this LMS 4MT 2-6-4T No 2435 mainly because I have seen too many models spoiled by poorly executed lining and I don't have much faith in my lining ability.
Would red between the frames be appropriate in this case?
Also, where the frames extend above the running boards in front of the smokebox, for red-inside-frames is the visible part left red or painted black? Photos I have found of models are inconsistent; showing both variations.

I am probably being a bit finicky, but seeing as it shouldn't take much more effort to get it right, I might as well try.
Thanks,
Clive

hi clive,

black inside above the frames.

i am afraid i am no LMS fan, but the buffer beams are almost an orangy red in LMS days, and ive seen reference and seen a few preserved fullsize LMS locos where the inside of the frames is NOT signal red but more vermillion/orangy red (but not as orangy as the buffer beams!)

i am sure there will be many LMS experts on here who can be more specific. im a GWR and Brighton fan myself!

cheers,

julian

hi clive,

re LMS locos have a look at the following

**LINK**

**LINK**

craftsman paints also do lots of enamels and coachpaints that arent listed on their website and supply fullsize railways, as do pheonix paints. i have found craftsman paints extremely helpful and very competitively priced. not sure what shippage will be to outside the UK.

perhaps worthwhile emailing both?

cheers,

julian

Edited By julian atkins on 17/04/2015 20:15:58

Hi Julian,
Thanks, that is very helpful.
Clive

Thanks. Sometime during the next few months I believe I need to be learning about issues with boiler. Something about the throatplate?? I have never made a boiler before but in any event this one will not be a first attempt.

Malcolm

hi malcolm,

re the boiler for the 3.5"g LBSC Brit there is a butt joint between throatplate and barrel. due to the size of the boiler and localised heating on later stages, and the misunderstood fact that LBSC specified a sifbronzed joint for barrel to throatplate, cracking can occur if this joint is done with silver solder. there are many examples of this happening in the most experienced of hands and Brit boilers being consigned to scrap. it is a well known problem that most club boiler inspectors will be familiar with.

it would be far better if a double flanged throatplate was substituted on this design if being a silver soldered joint.

cheers,

julian

Sorry for confusion, my remarks about valve gear dimensions were directed at Clivel's 2-6-4 Jubilee !!

Hi J Hancock.
Thanks for the warning. Are the tolerances just very close or are there actual errors in the valve gear dimensions?
Also, are there any other errors on the drawings that you may be aware of?
Thanks

Made as per drawing,bottom 1/4" of expansion link hit by connecting rod , centre line of valve does not line up with centre line of expansion link. Suggest you draw everything out on squared paper using drawing dimensions to see if your drawings have same errors as mine ! Also , worth looking at position of valve gear lever in cab. Forward position very close to boiler sight glass. Lovely locomotive to build, sure you will be happy with result.