New technology in Model Engineers Workshop

Copyright v. Patent < Law < Software Pluralism

Some tests:

Has the CAD drawing at any time been owned by its creator?

Has the creator of the drawing at any time had copyright rights attached to the drawing?

I would like to emphasise 'any time'.

If the creator did have copyright rights at any time, at what exact time and in what circumstance were those rights extinguished if they are seen to be extinguishable ?

If it can be proved that without the drawing a copy of the drawing could not exist, how did the copy representing an original work come to exist? Was the original drawing used?

Was the image represented by the file copy lawfully obtained ? If not is the originator entitled to remedy ?

Possession of an illegal copy is an offence at all times more so if it is used for financial gain. Is that gain a proceed of crime, subject to confiscation of the copy and the weight of the criminal law system?

I am sure there are more.....

Under British law property rights date back to the Magna Carta in 1215 800 years old this year !
In the US there is also the US Constitution. Both these documents were written to protect citizens from the state, giving them unalienable rights.

I cannot comprehend how an image created on a computer does not have the same entitlement to protection from plagiarism as an image created with a pencil.

Regards
John McNamara

Edited By John McNamara on 13/02/2015 14:44:51

I think you've made a simple thing very complicated John!

I'm no expert but my thoughts are:

Copyright is in the original work, not in derivative work. You paint a picture, I photograph it. The picture is your copyright, the photo is mine. You own the copyright in the CAD file, not in the output others generate with it.

The pragmatic answer is that you need to licence the design files in the same way you would licence a piece of software, and should consult an expert as to how this can best be done.

Neil

(This is why promoters try to control photographers at exhibitions and stop people making bootleg recordings of live music).

Edited By Neil Wyatt on 13/02/2015 14:49:09

Hi Ian

I am not sure it is that simple I wish it was. I have spoken to a few people in industry on this and their views differ. What I have yet to find documented precedent. I have thrown the question up in here hoping to get a better grip on the subject from the wide experience of the forum members.

Artworks and Publishing Music too are clearly documented, New tech lasers 3D print files etc. are from what I have been able to learn so far in a grey area.

Yes it would be nice to hire an attorney, fine for big business, not so easy for a small project, several hundred dollars an hour is out of the question.

Regards
John

Edited By John McNamara on 13/02/2015 15:07:53

I think you have a design for which you can licence the rights to produce it.

**LINK**

Neil

John

It would be normal to cover this as intellectual property (IP) rights in the contract between you and your contractor (the guy doing the cutting) or with anyone who works for you.... We write a cad system and sometimes create customer specials on top of the base system; the IP ownership is always explicitly declared in those contracts.

For a long time we, and other vendors, did not sell but only rented our software in France becuase selling required us to make all of the source code available under certain conditions..... Happily this anomally went away after the EU got it's teeth into it.

I suggest you include a clear statement of what terms you are allowing other parties to use your design for and what they are not allowed to do with it..

Mark

(Nightmare city) I personally don't know that much about copyright law other than what I've read, but there is another protection avenue (Design Registration) I have several designs registered with the patent office under there design registration department, funnily enough , (Most if not all are now lapsed) this basically covers the look of an item, and costs far less than a patent, it does not cover what it does.

I have also been involved in a couple of patents, I think part of the problem is the patent office its self, I honestly believe if I applied for a patent for the wheel and I worded it cleverly enough, I would get at least past the first hurdle, I have also read several patents recently that obviously infringe prior art, yet got granted, they are supposed to look for prior art! and if such exists you will not a get a patent, however this prior art thing is a very vague area, your product must also show innovation, another problem can be how long does a patent last, I think off hand its 20yrs but I might be wrong, I do know that drug companies register for a patent for new drug xxxx, however after registering their claim, they then hold back until someone tries to infringe said patent, before then pushing for the patent at this point they start legal proceedings, if they win any monies made by the infringer are seized.

My own experience of this was with a DIY tool that's now sold all over the place, quite simply we new we had a good idea, and lots of big retailers wanted it, our problem was we where a one product company, so the large retailers where reluctant to deal with us due to shelving and supply issues, so they sent us to a supplier/manufacturer, who made lots products for the Diy trade, they also loved our product, in fact so much so they made us an offer we simply could not refuse, this offer was for our tooling, intellectual property, and all existing products (50,000), and was financially an absolute joke, it didn't even cover our tooling costs, this offer also came with a warning, no ifs no buts, take it or we will take your product to our factory in China, and keep you in court until you run out of money, oh and use your product to fund the lawyers who we employ............. this was in a face to face meeting, I still cant believe I didn't kill the bloke there and then........

 

Edited By Involute Curve on 13/02/2015 15:52:49

we eventually settled after some threats, which didn't involve lawyers, but also included no ifs or buts, but we never got what we should have........... B*******'s

.

John,

I think this brief quotation from your post sums-up the whole problem.

• if you simply "give the file to a laser cutter and order a run" then you will be doing so on the Terms and Conditions prescribed by the Supplier. ... If you want something more stringent in your favour, then you need to negotiate a Contract, which should include matters such as non-disclosure and the limitation of the supplier's rights to re-use your design.
• it is a simple fact that "that person can then reproduce the item any time for anyone" without your permission ... The purpose of the contract is to have it on record that they shall not.
• "is the design my property?" ... Probably 'Yes' in most jurisdictions; But, the cost of prosecuting an offender with whom you do not have an explicit Contract, would make it an unrealistic ambition.

By no means a full answer, but I hope it gives you some food for thought.

MichaelG.

If I photograph my latest issue of ME can I flog the pictures then?

> If I photograph my latest issue of ME can I flog the pictures then?

No because when you buy a copy you are bound by the disclaimer on page 3 "The Publisher's written consent must be obtained before any part of this [publication my be reproduced in any form whatsoever, including photocopiers and information retrieval systems..."

In other words, just like John needs to, we put 'licence conditions' on the mag.

Remember what it used to say around the middle of records?

Neil

Do you believe you have invented anything novel and unique and if so, do you think anybody would realistically pay you a royalty to be allowed to make it? If not, there's no point wasting your time and money patenting it. Many companies are completely unrealistic about the chances of getting their money back and end up throwing staggering sums away.

You basically need to patent it in every market you think it's worth being protected in. Europe, America, China - how long's the list? Each one needs to be done separately and will take a great deal of money and time. You might wish to get Registered Design protection which really applies to the "look" of the thing, not any clever inventions embodied within. They really don't seem to work in China....

What do you think is novel? Don’t want to sound mean but personally, I can't see anything, in which case a patent isn't applicable to start with. You could possibly obtain a provisional patent, even a full one (most easily in the US - I often joke that you could patent a glass of water there). Some joker in Australia was granted a patent application for the wheel a few years back (seriously) although not surprisingly it was revoked.

Bottom line is that if you have designed a product that makes a nice margin, somebody will eventually copy it, no matter what you do. Patent coverage at its best wins you some time to harvest some reward from your invention before they do. If you've decided you aren't going to to patent it yourself and want to prevent somebody else patenting your idea, you can publish it.

Who’s going to want to copy your design? Hobby users aren’t prevented from copying and using it and industrial engineers / designers would do the work themselves, arguably just as well (skilled in the art etc). Quite simply, if there’s no novel IP, there’s nothing to get excited about.

Murray

Hi Ian
Yes Design Registration is one way to go, you have to apply for it in every country it is less expensive than a patent but the costs do add up. A Patent lasts for 20 years Design Registration lasts for up to 10 years and Copyright is for 70 years plus. Copyright is a Right, there are minimal fees It is basically automatic you do not have to apply for it.

Hi Mark
I like your Licensing methods I think it is the best way forward. It might be a good Idea to add a wrapper with a serial number around an encrypted version of the Cad File and get the user to accept the terms an conditions as many software companies do, It would be a little more difficult but possible to change the cad file slightly making the actual design unique. OK this will not stop the hackers but it will make it harder for most users.

Hi Involute
Gee you did have a rough time with your universal spanner. Its a tough world out there......

Hi Michael
Agree the term and conditions will have to be well written, Up to the point of giving a laser cutter the file I feel fairly comfortable that the software is protected by copyright and further that the Laser cutter can be restrained by contract from reproducing the file outside the stated terms.

But what if the software is pirated the owner of the software claim damages against the pirate user? Can an Anton Piller Order be served on the pirate an any goods produced be seized?

**LINK**

These questions are yet to be answered?

Hi Bazyle
Good one ........

Hi Muzzer
Yeah the road to a good design is full of potholes and much money and effort has been wasted patenting bad designs.

If the design I am working on was made by conventional manual methods I would not be very concerned, The problem is most of the design is laser cut steel plate. so far The CAD program says I have spent hundreds of hours on it and the final detailing will take as much as that again. I will then make a prototype. All this work can be copied and emailed in a few seconds.

"Nice Margin" is a bit of an oxymoron, the market is competitive, and gee I am trying to make it in the country where it is used not the far east.

I am not so much worried by others making a new machine If they want to put the time in to do it they can, as long as it is not a rip off of mine.

To All

Thanks for the replies so far, they are helping me a lot getting a better grip in the subject.

It will help if I can find similar cases that have been before the courts in other words precedent.Maybe someone knows of one?

This discussion is getting interesting.......

Regards
John