(old) Proxxon BFW 36/E vs. (new) Proxxon BFW 40/E

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A simple [and non-confrontational] question, if I may, John : Why were you not aware ?

The item on offer was well-described and illustrated.

It’s obviously ‘water under the bridge’ … but perhaps might trigger some introspection.

MichaelG.

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P.S. __ You might wish to compare it with this current listing on ebay:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115011982417

[but would probably better not]

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 06/10/2021 09:21:51

Not from where I'm sat! In software jargon, I fear you've become entangled in anti-patterns. Candidates are: Analysis Paralysis, Bicycle Shed, Over-engineering, Scope Creep, Accidental Complexity, Golden Hammer, Silver Bullet, and Wishful Thinking.

I short I see John has requirement conflicts that cannot be satisfied.

• Small Size
• Low Cost
• High Capability
• General Purpose
• Hobby versus Commercial

I suggest the problem isn't selecting tools, it's sorting out the requirement conflict. Requirements are important. Most obviously in this example, there isn't a small, cheap, high capability milling machine available. High-capability machines tend to hold their prices unless worn-out or damaged, in which case they aren't high-capability. Small, affordable mills are aimed squarely at genteel modelling - HO railways and so forth.

I suggest the most suspicious requirement is 'high-capability'. Stop looking for a Golden Hammer! Dump that, and a number of small machines become acceptable. Chinese, Proxxon, whatever, they will all do the job provided they're operated within their shortcomings. The user gets the job done by applying skill and patience rather than relying on the machine.

Compromise is almost universal on the forum. I don't know of any hobbyist rich enough to buy the best possible equipment: our budgets limit us to Far Eastern hobby machines and older second-hand gear, mostly manual. Even though they do all we need and much more, no hobbyist owns an 11-axis machine centre.

The Hobby versus Commercial issue also needs attention. If the goal is a commercial product, it's worth investing in. Development is a team game: lone inventors rarely succeed. Take advice. Pay someone else to make prototype parts: you do the design, they make it. Or raise the money to buy or hire the equipment and space needed. If the goal is commercial, different rules apply. Time is of the essence because someone else may be working on the same idea: first one to patent it wins. (Have you checked the idea isn't already patented?) Sell the car, mortgage the house, sell shares in the City, find a partner, put daughters on the street etc.

And once the item is in production marketing is even more a team sport than manufacture. James Watt found this: not enough to be a technical genius - his success only came after partnering with Matthew Boulton who knew how to organise, finance, and sell stuff.

Is the object to buy the best possible small mill at the lowest price for future fun, or is it to make a prototype? If the latter, compromise on the requirements or raise the cash. Be ruthless if the goal is a commercial product. Strict intellectual honesty is necessary because emotion badly fogs the issues. Worth writing a Business Case if not done already: working out how to make stuff is only one factor, and it's often the least difficult. Forcing oneself to think through all the risks and issues is always valuable, especially when setting priorities.

Metalwork for business is much harder than metalwork for fun. Don't assume they're the same!

Dave

One again SoD has nailed it!

If one trawled back through years of years of postings there have only a small number of forum members that consistently give honest, sound, unbiased and practical advice and replies (john Stevenson was my hero).

There is no 'like' button here (thank goodness) but Dave get my current vote.

Ian P

PS I wonder if I should have started this as a new topic

I must admit to having a Proxxon BFW 40/E Mill/drill, which I have had for 12 years or so. I was not using it for metal work. It was used for making 12th scale doll house furniture and also as a wood router. I have used it when drilling/milling small brass items where the high speed is quite useful. The X and Y axis work ok although as with most things there is backlash. I had intended to fit simple cheap DRO's to this never got round to it.

To move up a size where accuracy is desired then I use a Cowells B100 vertical mill. Although this does not have a quill I have not had a problem drilling with it. Because it is a knee mill the weight of the table and knee (have up to now) prevented any grabbing of drills when breaking through brass of steel material.

Anything bigger gets done on the big Gate PBM2000, which is a 3HP version of a Bridgeport mill (which replaced a Chester Super Lux which was giving me problems).

So in my case it is horses for courses. I appreciate not everyone can be in this situation.

I looked around for quite some time for the Cowells and in the end it came from an advert on this site. Luckily I saw and responded to the advert before anyone else and had to travel 150 odd miles each way to collect it. I would certainly recommend it as a nice well behaved small mill, albeit expensive. I have upgraded it with 3 axis DRO and I have fitted a hex drive to the upper handle and use a small palm sized cordless screwdriver to raise and lower the knee rapidly. Much kinder on the shoulder.

The other thing I like about the Cowells is with it on a suitable height table and sat on a chair you can get very close to the work being undertaken. Note I do use polycarbonate screens and safety glasses when working this close to the machine.

Colin

+1 for SODs analysis of the problem, though I don't understand quite all the terms and references he uses.

SOD has left out by accident, I think , John's other requirement - light weight. John has to be able to lift the mill off a shelf onto the table he uses as a bench and back again when he has finished, if I understand his situation correctly. Which requirement makes the task of locating something suitable even more challenging.

Rod

Dave/SOD

Yes, that is exactly what a model-maker would say, where you have something specific in mind that you need to build. Say a small steam engine or whatever, for which you have a specific design in mind.

And a business man would agree.

The answer that both people would give is that 100% definitely I should outsource everything. Each small job would cost say £50 to 150 and, particularly if postage is involved would take 1 to 2 weeks to get back. That way I would get it made accurately with minimal investment in either tooling or in wasted energy learning new skills.

And so I should definitely not buy any tools and certainly not any kind of milling machine!

However it is linear, "waterfall engineering" thinking.

J

Edited By John Smith 47 on 07/10/2021 11:40:29