BSF and Whitworth "Across the flats " sizes.

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It’s obviously frustrating if you can’t find one, Andy ... but I have just confirmed that BS 192-2:1998 [which is current] lists the wrench you need, in Table 1

MichaelG.

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P.S. ___ For clarity, and hopefully compliant with ‘fair use’ ... here is a very brief quotation from the Foreword:

This British Standard supersedes the parts of BS 192:1982 that deal with Whitworth and BS wrench sizes.

... and [should you feel the need to purchase a copy] a link to the BSI Shop page: **LINK**

https://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail?pid=000000000001402890

Right.

What might we expect it to say on it? 1 3/32"?

Interesting thread, I have often wondered about this and often used "the nearest I had handy" when in a rush. I have tried to use the link to the Handy Table posted by Brian G on 9.10.17 but it does not work for me (it is 3 years old ). Will someone post a more up to date link.

Thanks

Rod

Was the one I linked this morning [08:47:41] not good enough for you, Rod ?

MichaelG.

My mold Britool Catalogue No 106 on page 128 quotes nominal bolt diameters as being 11/16" to the original BS 28 and BS 190, and 3/4 tot he later BS 1083 and BS 916 for black nuts and bolts.

This is for a wrench with a nominal jaw opening of 2.00

A wrench with a jaw opening of 1.1" is quoted as being for nominal diameters of 11/16" to BS 28 and BS 190 or 3/4" to BS1083, without any reference to black nuts or bolts.

If the fire engine is 1916, I would be inclined to think in terms think in terms of BS 28

It quotes the 5/8 BSW and 11/16 BSF as being wheel nut sizes used on most A E C, and Albion, some Morris Commercial and Dodge 264/P4, commercial vehicles, and the rear wheels of David Brown and international tractors. Whjich may be a source of mspanner, although being wheel nuts, I would expect them to be socket types, which may be more secure, if there is room for the socket...

Howard

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**LINK**

https://shop.bsigroup.com/SearchResults?q=bs+28&id=161026&epslanguage=en&filter=spanners~

MichaelG.

So BS 1912 looks to be the one to read, if you feel like joining BSI, or paying twice as much (£182 ) if you don't.

At those prices I'll believe what Britool and others tell me!

Howard

Sorry Michael, missed that one, lots of posts on this thread, but not really a good excuse.

Thanks for posting the chart.

Regards

Rod

Some of the older Haynes manuals used to have a very useful scale of sizes showing the various spanner sizes along it.

Hi, here's a photo of my 5/8 W-11/16 BS which is A Bedford No.RW2022 and it has a 11/16W-3/4BS on the other end. I've had this for 50 years, but don't use it much now, however didn't use the 5/8W end very often, except for only for holding, while using the other end. These were advertised in the 1964 Buck and Hickman catalogue. there are also two scans from the same catalogue and you can see King Dick also did this size (DDW2100). One thing about spanner sets, is they don't always include all the sizes that are available and normally contain the preferred sizes or the ones mostly used and if you need the others, you had to obtain them separately.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 12/09/2020 22:14:31

One size that defies the use of metric or AF substitute is 5/16 Whit Post war.

I have a considerable collection of spanners that may have taken four generations to collect. I have yet to give them a good sort even though they where in my shed for a decade. They have been washed recently to remove asbestos and rat excreta, and are now in my back lobby for us to trip over.

The old ones are clearly "steam spanners" very thick and suitable for brass or bronze fittings, rather rusty, however I have noticed that the tolerance across flats is pretty loose, such that couldn't find a good fit for my USA South Bend lathe tailstock locking nut. The best one was made by a mangle manufacturer.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it just a case that spanners where pretty crude in the day?

Ta, Rog

Several large handfuls of 11/16 BSF and 5/8 BSW spanners listed on Fleabay. They must have been common at one time.

Sounds like perhaps you have been trying to use British BS sized spanners on the South Bend's American AF sized nuts? They are that little bit different to where some will fit but sloppily.

Otherwise, old spanners get their jaws sprung from heavy use over many years and will be slack fitting. Those old "steam spanners" probably got flogged within an inch of their life with sledgehammers more than once before.

yeah Hopper, some have a huge amount of bruising.

I think I shall have to do some measuring.

I have some difficulty with the notion that before WW2 all BSF bolts had the original BSW size heads. My view (based on evidence which is now in the loft) is that all BSF sizes have been the same since the beginning of BSF in about 1905, and were the 'next size down ' of the original Whitworth sizes. That is certainly the case on all the pre-war motorcycles and cars that have been through my (mainly grubby) hands. Except of course for foreign ones.

There is one Metric size which is within about 0.002" of a Whit/BSF size - 18mm = 3/8W, 7/16BSF. And as 18mm is not a 'popular' metric size, they do crop up in unworn condition at shows etc. And many cheapo 7/16 AF and 11mm will fit 3/16W, 1/4BSF.

And 19mm = 3/4 AF, within the tolerances of even well-made spanners.

Cheers, Tim

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As well you might, Tim

... any idea where such a notion originates ?

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 13/09/2020 18:37:46

Using conventional spanners on hardware for which they were not intended, (Such as A/F on BSW / BSF ) is inviting rounded corners and bruised / cut knuckles! As many will testify, slackening a fastener with already rounded corners, using the "correct" spanner can be very difficult, if not impossible.

In extremis, I have carefully filed the flats of a damaged fastener to accept a spanner of another type producing a closer fit. Effectively, this removes the rounded corners, but results in a hybrid with a thread of one form and the head size of a different thread form. But where needs must and all that!

The only "slack" fitting spanners or sockets which are safe to use on BSW/BSF, A/F and Metric hexagons are Metrinch or other flank drive tools.

These, as the description suggests, drive on the flanks of the flats and not on the corners. Sometimes they will slacken fasteners which have resisted all efforts using correctly sized spanners, and on fasteners with damaged corners..

They take some getting used to, since the fit seems to be very slack, but they do work, and are often my first (And therefore only ) choice for slackening or tightening a recalcitrant fastener.

The convention, of using the same size hexagon on a BSF fastener where then thread is one size different from the BSW dates from BS 28

The various BS ( 28, 190 and the later 1083 ) specify the equivalent hexagon sizes. The Britool catalogue 106, illustrates the change by references 5 and 6 on page 128 . The change came about as a means of saving material during WW2, when steel was in short supply.

Howard

I remember an old machine in our machine shop still wore its “war finish” label to advise of non standard fasteners and a lower standard of finish.

Mike