Ken Sprayson

Today I have been trying to advance the installation of a Tormach Mill in the workshop to the point that it is all ready to plug in and install the operating system (Mach 3) I should get it all finished tonight and then tomorrow I have to return to work for another two weeks. I will leave installing any software until after I come back home in a couple of weeks by which time I should have received the automatic draw bar and tool changer, then I will load up the software and give it a whirl.

It has been a big job getting it set up, particularly given that my workshop is fairly tight for space but I am pleased with what I have bought. Oompa Lumpa (Graham) you are more than welcome to come and have a gander once I get back next trip.

Good evening Bob. Does that mean you are going to miss MadMikes Gathering on the 15th June?

Have a "gander"! I have news for you - I have it's first job here - Fifty off. Think I am joking? I have the material too!

graham.

(drop me a line, I will be straight 'round).

Having a life long interest in all aspects of pure speed attempts mechanical as well as human and at the moment looking at the various welding techniques for motor cycle frames.

Have come across this from Ken Spraysons old firm Reynolds they are back into motorcycles

**LINK**

As all my home built frames were bronze welded like Reynolds used to be but according to what I have been told for competition in the USA that's not allowed.

Are there any forum members with practical experience of Tig Welding motor cycle frames mainly out of cold drawn mild steel as my old frames were made out of.

Not the more exotic 531, 631,853,953 alloys.

The Tig welded dragster frames sometimes are stress relieved a bronze welded frame is more flexible.

The Tig joint preparation has to be first class as well as cleanliness.

I want to find out about the type of joints required to relieve or spread stress.

Do I have to stress relieve them and how.

For cold drawn mild steel tube will Mild Steel Tig rods be suitable.

Are there any books on the Tig welding and building of motorcycle frames from scratch.

I have had some useful advice from this forum in the past and hope for more.

Paul

Hi Paul, Tony Foale has a book about motorcycle frame design and building, I thought I had a copy but cannot find it,it seems quite a lot of money now at 53euros for a PDF copy. It may be worth getting the library to get a copy to see if it has any useful info.

Mike

Ps. It has chapters on materials and welding

Edited By Michael Poole on 04/08/2015 11:19:41

Hi Paul, get hold of a copy of John Bradley's book, The Racing Motorcycle A Technical Guide for Constructors Volume 2, (ISBN 0951292935) this is without doubt the best book on this subject, Volume one is more about the theory volume 2 is more about the practical side, his proper job is Teaching Engineering, He was at Teesside Uni, but last time I spoke to him he was moving to a bigger uni down south) his books are an easy read if your into this subject, he covers pretty much all you need to know from materials to Aero stuff and pretty much all the differing welding techniques.
I make all my frames at home from either T45 of CDS depending on intended use, all are either Tig welded or bronze welded, I never stress relieve them, my latest frame is Inconel and aluminium but that's a long story........

Shaun

PS Added due to me being too slow, I think Tony Foale would also recoemmnd this book.

Thanks will look into them.

John Bradley's book, The Racing Motorcycle A Technical Guide for Constructors Volume 2, (ISBN 0951292935)

Have just looked on Amazon and is priced at £999 have been in touch with Amazon as some new books I have looked at before have been silly prices when I know they are a great deal cheaper.

Paul

i think amazon and ebay sellers use an outrageous price when an item is out of stock, john Bradleys books seem to be available for about £32 from other sources, might be worth getting the library to get a copy to see whether buying would be useful.

Mike

It's easier to edit a listing than remove it and replace it later. Seems a silly price but with time I think most people will see it for what it is. E-sales are still new in the terms of how things are sold given we have had markets etc for many centuries.

Been in touch with the publishers and this is there reply.

There is one here

**LINK**

Only £4,144 plus £44 shipping

There's a couple on ebay but make sure you get vol 2 its more use than vol 1 although both are worth buying.

Shaun

edited to add, I think I paid about 70quid each when they came out I would have easily paid double this if I had to, both are 500 ish pages and useful just for the materials sections, these are the best books of this type since Phil Irvin's books from years ago, I have Tony Foales books they are very good but not in the same league.

Edited By Involute Curve on 04/08/2015 16:32:06

Amazing the different sides of Model engineering and the advice you can get is priceless.

I can get Volume one but will keep my eyes open for volume two.

Phil Irvings books were a great help to me  all those years ago and Tuning for Speed gave me ideas for the hydroplane's engine development.

Have found trades that are nothing to do with mechanical engineering can have processes that can be useful to experimental work.

All branches of ME are of interest me and amazed at some of the home workshop creations.

Paul

Edited By Windy on 04/08/2015 17:10:40

Edited By Windy on 04/08/2015 17:12:48

Edited By Windy on 04/08/2015 17:20:43

I like models, however I'm not a dedicated modeller myself (retired engineer), but I do admire the dedication which some guys have when making their model engines, machines etc.and I'm sure the magazine started originally to cater for these model making people.

The word 'model' to me implies that it is a showpiece, but not necessarily a 'scale model' and as such, it is very often much better than the original (mass produced) offering!

Yes, no need to be tied to a Myford, Boxford, or any other brand), they have all been good and well loved for many years, but why does our machinery have to be vintage as well? plenty of good little machines around these days. However having said that, human nature very often dictates that we go overboard trying to outdo each other with whatever machinery we might have - this can get out of hand, it all becoming a "look at me, pissing contest" and this (to me) goes against the spirit of the magazine. Surely, the magazine was started to show off people's skills and share interests rather than their purchasing power?

Sometimes we might get off track in the forum of course (off course?), to me that is ok. so long as we get back on quickly and don't go off at a tangent - it does sometimes make things more interesting.

I am extremely interested in modern machinery too, but some of us just can't manage to fit it into our budget

I forgot to mention Ken Sprayson who I remember as being ' the Guru' of motorcycle frame welding and his pioneering work with bronze welding, I will look forward to seeing what he has to say.

Motorcycles and aircraft used to be more or less all that I lived for and I remember being so interested in bronze welding that I spent a year or so working in a tubular steel furniture factory in order to become proficient at that "art" - and I did become that.

Also I had access to all the tube benders, saws etc. and actually built a motorcycle frame there during my lunch hours! (with normal bronze rods and using inline Vapoflux which was great, but dangerous to breathe, (It all worked fine as it turned out).

I once had a bit of an 'altercation' with an American guy who was a self proclaimed TIG expert (for aircraft frames) and I dared to suggest that bronze welding might be at least as good as TIG - I couldn't believe the indignant reaction I got - he said that I was talking rubbish and that using bronze was like sticking it together with UHU glue! - I do still feel a little uneasy about TIG welded chromoly tubing and the brittle area where the weld meets the tube, but as they say "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" and there are enough light planes flying with this type of construction!

And to think I said we shouldn't get off topic for long! - sorry about that

Edited By WD70 on 05/08/2015 23:16:00

WD70,

Well said in your first post

I got interested in frame materials through push bike frames. Back in the early eighties the really skilled frame builders were building lugless frames with brazed manganese-moly 531. Back then the argument for moving to CroMo, which can be welded, was simply one of economics - the welding could be automated for mass production. Nobody was suggesting then that it was a superior product.. I believe butted 531 tubing was originally developed for airframe construction in the '30s

Cheers,

Rod

If I had oxy and acetylene now I would bronze weld a proposed frame but insurance frown upon them at home.

I have Tig now and trying to find the book suggested but it's like rocking horse s### finding one so just trying a library search.

Apart from rebuilding the steamer for this weekends Kingsbury meeting the following weekend at Elvington the fast lads and lasses on bikes etc. will be blasting down the runway.

**LINK**

A runway I personally know well sliding down it in 1975 at approximately 150mph (average speed over the kilo 195.71mph before crash) great days.

Paul

Edited By Windy on 06/08/2015 01:12:25

Edited By Windy on 06/08/2015 01:31:38

Thanks Rod for your reply.

I do have a TIG welder but after two years I still haven't used it ! - I decided that the price of Argon was just too much for my pensioner's wallet (also Acetelyne), To be quite honest, I don't want to store expensive Argon or Acetylene with the ever present threat of it leaking slowly and then finding that when I want to use it, it's gone!

If you use the correct tubing and follow the rules then TIG makes a very nice weld, but bronze looks great too!, whichever is best is up for debate.

Now I have changed tack and have built a small furnace in order to learn aluminium casting and have done a couple of pours. I use good old LPG gas and sometime find some good clean ally castings at the local scrapyard to melt down - all great fun I reckon! - might eventually try anodising which looks easy.

PAUL, - found this article and thought that it might interest you (if you haven't already found it).

Guess you've got new leathers by now!

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/welding-4130.html

[Clickable link added. ] JS.

Edited By John Stevenson on 11/08/2015 09:53:36