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Hallam Engine
| Ramon Wilson | 27/02/2010 15:57:40 |
 1655 forum posts 617 photos | Alan I forgot something.
Hughs advice to me was to fit the engine with a glowplug -an adaptor will need to be made - and try running it on methanol (and oil - castor that is or commercial glow fuel) first. Not for long just to establish its abilty to run - you should achieve a more flexible run against needle valve settings.
The timing cam has to be set in relation to the piston and the timing bracket should be capable of movement and locking whilst running. He recommends a retarded spark for starting - just ATDC
There is also the fact that if yours was home made the porting/timing events may be restricting things.
Just thought - you do have the piston in the right way? Some side port pistons have a step on the top to one side - this has to go on the transfer side of the bore.
Now I really am off to the workshop!
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| mgj | 27/02/2010 17:59:40 |
| 1017 forum posts 14 photos | Ramon - please don't be obtuse. Firstly the flywheel. Just think in control line speak - how to get a shaft run. Take the prop blades off. So the whole business of the flywheel is an ill considered red herring. I am surprised that someone as knowledgeable as you on the i/c engines considered letting that one through. Secondly the oil. You wish to run your engine on SAE 70 treacle and gum and soot up the works unnecessarily - by all means. But why you should inflict that on a novice, when plainly it will be much easier to get an engine that's being a bit feminine going well on modern oil, and then, if the vintage bit appeals, change back. As an added bonus it will also protect it better the while. Running the engine on methanol - well that's fine, but its been checked that it's compressed correctly for methanol rather than petrol? Methanol likes a lower compression ratio than petrol, and so running it on methanol without changing CR may make life interesting. It also likes a rather different fuel air mixture, so this novice now has to find a different start settings entirely?? I don't quite see the problem. He mixes a low ash 2 stroke fuel at 25%. The engine starts and runs already. All he has ro do is fire it up and move the timing plate a bit, till it runs best and probably stops being awkward. Then he can adjust his needle valve for optimum. As for his piston being in the right way - well its a piston port engine. so there is a hole in the piston to allow the mix through. That is the inlet timing valve and primary compression seal. So, its quite possible that if the piston were in the wrong way round, we might know about it by now. As for the port timing. It may or may not be perfect, but with a 2 stroke you have a choice. Lift port height and you lose torque and gain top end. Lower it and vice versa - in principle anyway. So if its not precise, it may not develop its full potential but it won't be a disaster. However, since it runs, we can at this stage be reasonably sure they are not a mile out. If it were miles out the engine would be partway to being unrunnable. As long as the transfers open a bit before the exhaust reaches fully open and promote good scavenge, thats about as good as it gets. Since its not a boost ported engine, with open loop scavenge its unlikely to be very critical is it? I mean its hardly likely to have an oversize crankcase and early transfer timing suitable for piped operation with awkward starting thrown in for free?. . Thus far we have a page and a half of recommendations, some of which are plainly erroneous and others utterly inconsequential, on an engine that basically works but hasn't yet been run in. Nor is it fair to claim that you are simply the messenger - you are the one who has all this I/C knowledge and should be well able to filter for the benefit of a beginner. Or, if you are not, then it might be better to cease speaking authoritatively Lets get off autobabble and start giving Alan steady, reasoned, one step at a time advice as he needs it - and preferably have it right and relevant , so he has the best chance of getting this motor going as is, and then later he can start doing whatever he wants in the vintage world - he can run it on paint thinners if he wants to, but at least he will have a known workable baseline for reference. |
| MichaelR | 27/02/2010 19:00:50 |
 528 forum posts 79 photos | I notice that your engine is fitted with a flywheel, if you are running the engine with a propeller I would remove the flywheel, then see how it runs.
Running with both could be loading the engine and not allowing the "Revs" to build.
Just a thought. !! |
| chris stephens | 27/02/2010 19:11:26 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Guys,
Let me start by saying I know very little about model two strokes, but I have a little experience with the real thing. Are we really saying to run these toys on one quarter oil/ petrol ratio? Or are we confusing one quarter (25%) with 1:25 oil/petrol mix?
On road going two strokes, if memory serves, the ratio could be in the range of 1:25 or 1:40 even less with a decent modern synthetic oil.
I am willing to be corrected, on the mix issue, but I do find it very strange that little ones need so much more oil compared to their big brothers, considering that the engineering is so very similar.
If someone has the definitive answer can they quote from an instruction manual and not quote hearsay.
TIA
chriStephens |
| Alan Worland | 27/02/2010 21:11:41 |
| 247 forum posts 21 photos | Crikey guys - lets not start a fight!! I have no immediate plans to build anything to use this engine, it just started as a little project to get an antique engine to run and went from there!
I think your comment Chris about oil/petrol mix is quite interesting, my son ran 2 stroke bikes for a while and the ratio you suggest rings a bell.
I have measured the stroke of the engine and it measures the 'stroked' 1 inch
Further investigation has revealed what I think is a major fault - the points cam breaks at 11 degrees BTDC, BUT, the cam only allows the points to close for a duration of 48 degrees - so for the rest of the cycle the points are open with the coil not 'on'
I would have thought the cam should have had the coil 'on' for the cycle only breaking when required for the spark?
Anyway while I was measuring the timing (piece of masking tape around the flywheel) I took note of other timing events
Piston starts to clear the exhaust port at 127 degrees ATDC
Piston starts to uncover inlet venturi at 43 degrees BTDC
Piston fully covers inlet venturi at 43 degrees ATDC
Dont know if these figures are what might be expected
Really interesting with regard to the catalogue - would love a scan of it?
Your engine looks pretty similar to mine although I note the points on mine are on top and yours are on the side of the crankcase and my fuel tank appears larger - can you appreciate the timing is not that easy to adjust accurately?
With regard to the oil in the mix I can only be guided by those with more experience than myself, I used 2 stroke oil because it is a 2 stroke!
Here are some photos of the culprit!
Edited By Alan Worland on 27/02/2010 21:19:37 |
| Ramon Wilson | 27/02/2010 21:18:10 |
1655 forum posts 617 photos | Hi Alan,
I have stripped this engine down this afternoon and feel fairly certain this one is home built. I dont know what your piston is like but this has a shallow slope on the exhaust side with a much shorter one on the transfer side. This one is a composite with an ali top riveted to an ali insert for the gudgeon pin clamping a cast skirt.
My intention was not to insult you with the suggestion of wrong assembly merely a suggestion on something else to check. The reason I think this one is home built is that virtually all the flat faces appear to be filed including the piston top. The crankshaft is made of three parts the pin and shaft silver soldered in place.
The piston seal is not particularly good but I will carry out Hughs recommendations and see where they lead to. I will have to get a new plug (or make one) as this one is broken. Regards for now - I'll keep you posted on developments.
Chris - I'm not quoting from 'hearsay' per se. The two people I contacted are well known for their knowledge of vintage model engines. One earns a living repairing, making parts and building replicas the other has a lot of experience with using them in tethered cars and hydoplanes. Their advice is possibly not perfect in some quarters but I've known one a long time and of the others experience for about the same.
However, at the risk of possibly being castigated for quoting from such, perhaps you will be reassured by the fact that Westbury who, in his book Model Petrol Engines (of which I have literally just obtained a copy this evening) states and I do quote (p159)
"A 250cc motor cycle may run quite satisfactorily on a mixture of 1 part oil to 16 parts petrol while a 5cc engine may require 1 part oil to four parts petrol" unquote .
The 'technical' reasons why a small two stroke petrol engine requires this amount is not something I know the answer too as yet but standard glo fuel is either 75:25 methanol/oil or 80/20 depending on the engine (I had better add - of the ones I'm used too!)
He goes on to say that the most suitable proportions are found by trial and error and represent a compromise between under oiling and over oiling.
It would appear that four to one is a probably a good starting point then.
Kind regards - Ramon |
| Alan Worland | 27/02/2010 21:38:34 |
| 247 forum posts 21 photos | Hi Ramon
I think our posts have crossed!
I attempted to put some photos up - didn't work, but I believe if you click on them you will get there!
I remember file marks on my piston crown as well
Shame about the plug - mine is a Champion Y-5, don't suppose they are still available.
Do you believe your piston is the right way round? Edited By Alan Worland on 27/02/2010 21:40:14 |
| Ramon Wilson | 27/02/2010 21:47:42 |
1655 forum posts 617 photos | Hi again Alan,
I'm afraid that beyond the most basic facts the mysteries of the ignition system mechanics are yet to be discovered
 . However the cam on this appears to be the same as yours closing for a very short period relative to the lift. (This flat also appears filed on)
As you see it the points have just rotated around the engine, currently they are loose and will rotate to the same top position as yours. As it stands the position can be locked with a screw but a short threaded bar knurled on the end would help move it while running and allow locking which is something I'm certain I have seen on other engines elsewhere.
BTW as a matter of interest is yours assembled with round head 1/8 whitworth screws?
(The four cylinder head bolts on this go in no more than three or four threads!)
Your photos appear to show what Hugh described as the original tank - made from a casting. This one has just a piece of tube with an end turned from flat plate let in.
|
| Ramon Wilson | 27/02/2010 21:55:55 |
1655 forum posts 617 photos | Yes Alan, quite happy with the direction - short side to the transfer.
As above - found the pics okay - thanks.
I believe 1/4 x 32 plugs are now readily available - I'm sure I saw that Just Engines sell them. Whether you can get 3/8 though is another matter but an adaptor could be made. It would be nice to get an original unmachined head for this - it's not very good and is poor by the rest of the engine.
Bye for now |
| mgj | 27/02/2010 22:37:40 |
| 1017 forum posts 14 photos | Alan, unless you have a Desaxe arrangement, where the crank is off set with respect to the centre line, port timing will always be symmetrical. The inlet timing is fairly conservative. One of the limitations of the 2 stroke. The 25% oil is probably about right, unless you go to a fully synthetic. You can run these engines right down at 2-4% as long as its jetted for the increase in fuel - with the appropriate oil of course.. These books by people like Westbury, or even Campbell on 4 stroke engines, are very good of course, but they are products of their generation. A lot of things have moved on, especially oil technology. In fact the change in oil technology is THE thing that has permitted the advances in performance and longevity over the last 20 years or so. You need to know where to lift and where to leave. Bit like asking Bleriot to give a lecture on aerodynamics. It runs - all you have to do is to move that timing plate to get best speed and then back off a smidgen. Slowly reduce oil, and see if it labours, or goes rich. (do a plug chop, that'll tell you pretty quick if the mixture is right, or the rice paper test.) A 5 is a cold plug on the Champion scale, or should be if their plugs scales remain as was. We used to run some of the racers on N5s. If you are running that much oil and you can't cure the misfire, a hotter plug could well help stop oiling. Any unballasted plug of the right heat rating will do, as long as it fits! But at the end of the day its a fifties engine, designed for the crappy props of the day. Get a nice big prop on it, something suited to todays 90s with a moderate degree of pitch and experiment. (13 x 5?). If you have a hand held tacho, which will be needed for checking the timing, you'll soon know if you are overloading the engine Keep the revs moderately low and it will lug away all day. Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 27/02/2010 22:46:51 Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 27/02/2010 22:50:57 Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 27/02/2010 23:02:08 |
| chris stephens | 28/02/2010 13:28:12 |
| 1049 forum posts 1 photos | Hi Ramon,
I do try to keep an open mind to all advice, but when it does not tally with what I know, I have to ask for confirmation.
A memory comes back to me from the days I helped a mate in his outboard motor business. It involves the local boat club's Commodore's outboard, it was loosing all power and smoked a bit. Upon stripping it was found that the exhaust system was almost completely blocked with oily crud, from exhaust ports to outlet. When asked what oil/petrol ratio he had been using he quoted the correct one. When asked what oil he was using, replied he had taken the advice of the club's "expert" that he should not bother with 2 stroke oil and that he should just use standard car multi-grade mixed in with his petrol. This is why I trust manuals rather more than "hearsay".
Still, it does take all sorts doesn't it?
chriStephens |
| Ramon Wilson | 28/02/2010 15:52:11 |
1655 forum posts 617 photos | Hi Chris, Yes it does!
A fair comment, based on your personal experience - and nothing a better indicator for making ones own mind up - a factor I totally agree with.
It may be that SAE 70 proves to be too thick but at this stage I will take on board what my friends are saying as well as taking note of other opinions expressed. Like so much in life one should listen to all carefully before making a judgement.
As I stated quite early on this thread I do not have any personal experience with spark ignition motors but that my intention was to build one. That hasn't changed and taking an interest in Alans request has spurred me on to do so even more.
I guess if I am guilty of anything it's taking an interest, with my own interest in mind too, in someones problems and trying to help based on the info already possessed on small IC motors as well as, at this stage, as that of others whose experience I know of and value. Turning to such others at times for info that one is ready to accept but perhaps others won't is not something that can be foreseen and in all probability you may have similar aquaintances possibly in other fields that you might do likewise.
As you say 'it does take all sorts'
I intend to be back with a running example of this old engine too so please be assured that if the oil proves too thick or too much or it doesnt do or live up to what I have been told then I will be the first to admit it - redface or not
 At this moment though I would just like to see Alan improve the running of his to his satisfaction and that I at least can get this one to fire.
Regards - Ramon
Edited By Ramon Wilson on 28/02/2010 15:53:32 |
| Martin W | 28/02/2010 16:53:36 |
| 940 forum posts 30 photos | Hi
I make this contribution with little or no detailed knowledge of this type of engine but have a question having had a look at the photos that Alan supplied. The question is, and it will have probably been looked at anyway, can the fuel tank breathe adequately and if not could it be starving the engine of fuel so it can' rev correctly??
As I say this question is based on observations from the photos so I would appreciate it if the more knowledgeable didn't launch into a tirade regarding my lack of understanding etc!!!!
Cheers
Martin W Edited By Martin W on 28/02/2010 16:54:12 |
| mgj | 28/02/2010 17:40:31 |
| 1017 forum posts 14 photos | Could be Martin - hunting which this engine is doing is usually thought of a a sign of being rich, but that's not necessarily so with a spark ignition.You may well have a very good point. - and I did actually make this suggestion in a pm to Alan some days ago.(about running lean as opposed to a cause) The fire doesn't go out because its spark ignited, so you get a self regulating effect if the situation is marginal. It sucks and speeds up, runs out of fuel and it slows, the fuel supply catches up, it speeds up. (On a diesel or glow engine of course the thing would have lost heat and stopped.) The thing that made me think that way as the way there was one adjustment and instant death. Engines running rich tend to become very uneven and stutter to a halt, and having stuttered tend to need to be cleared before starting. But that behaviour is very typical of a partially obstructed fuel supply - or of a small air leak in the jet/spraybar assembly.. Also it may run OK, but won't accelerate cleanly. Still , all will be revealed doubtless Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 28/02/2010 17:45:18 |
| Ramon Wilson | 28/02/2010 17:52:22 |
1655 forum posts 617 photos | Having taken another look Martin that's not an unreasonable question as there doesn't appear to be a breather vent visible anywhere but that may be well hidden under the cap. Whether that would have the effect of the apparent restriction on running remains to be seen, I would have thought that if the tank were 'sealed' the engine would eventually stop through lack of suction. A very small vent eg a crack around the inlet pipe etc may allow some equalisation but might possibly have the effect of causing the engine to run lean as the pressure inside was reduced and richening up as it it equalised however whether that would cause the engine to stop as Alan describes when he moves the fuel needle either way seems to point in another direction.
I notice Alan your engine has no webs on the front housing , probably machined off for easier movement on the timing arm perhaps? or just a different casting.
Regards - Ramon
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| Alan Worland | 28/02/2010 21:10:24 |
| 247 forum posts 21 photos | Excellent point Martin about the tank vent - there isn't one! The only thing I will say in its defence is it runs 'naff' from the start when tank would be at atmospheric pressure.
I will however try it with the filler removed/loose and see if it makes any difference.
Ramon, I never knew the timing can be adjusted by moving the whole points assembly around the crankcase! I have only adjusted the timing by moving the cam on the crankshaft! Not ideal.
It does look like where my points are there was a web on the casting which has I guess been removed to enable the points to lay on top.
My plug has a 3/8 thread
Meyrick, does this sound like 'hunting' to you? I have only really experienced hunting on a four cylinder car engine and results in a rythmic increase and decrease in revs accompanied by a sooty exhaust. Mine sounds to me like it is running weak? My experience of 2 strokes not running correctly is when they appear to mis a few ignition strokes and sound like they are '8 stroking'
I am not sure how this engine could hunt? Surely if the needle valve was unscrewed to allow more fuel in this would mean bigger bangs which would put the speed up and draw more air in?
I will have another go tomorrow. |
| Alan Worland | 01/03/2010 18:21:36 |
| 247 forum posts 21 photos | Had a go today. Mixed up 25% 2 stroke oil with unleaded petrol (same as before) ignition on and started 'flicking' the prop with a piece of wooden dowel (easier to replace than fingers!) and it fired second flick and ran for about 2/3 seconds and stopped.
Repeated attempts at starting would at best repeat the above or nothing - not even a pop
I have found that the throttle if opened more than about 1/4 turn can flood the engine
When driving it with an electric drill as in the video it will attempt to fire as there is something coming from the exhaust - but that's it! most disappointing
Ignition sounds most promising when just BTDC
I have a nice fat spark in the plug but I noticed as I put the revs up on the drill (plug on bench) that the spark seems virtually non existant above about 2000 rpm - can't see it anyway? I am now wondering if the cam is allowing the coil 'on' for long enough
I tried warming the cylinder with a blowlamp but it then seemed less likely to fire?
Anyway, gave up, everything covered in oil (including me!) letting it all dry off have a go another day! |
| Ramon Wilson | 04/03/2010 16:53:29 |
1655 forum posts 617 photos | Hi again,
Alan, further to your oil bound frustration which, I am now pleased to be able to state I can sympathise with personally, I think I may have found the reason for your engines problems - and almost certainly if the characteristics experienced so far with this example are anything to go by.
I now have this one running successfully albeit not on spark ignition - that is the next stage - but I thought you and others may be interested in progress so far.
In order to ascertain whether this engine would run at all I decided to take onboard the advice of Hugh, who is, after all, well experienced in running petrol engines and does, to be fair, actually practices what he preaches but first I took another really good look at the various engine parts and it's make up beginning with the carb.
The needle has a (relatively) coarse thread and taper and it was felt that this is probably the root cause of the 'rich' fuel situation which, for this example certainly, has proved to be.
The piston does not have a transfer port in the skirt so could be fitted the wrong way and it would still run though probably nowhere like it should. The transfer port is cast into the crankcase and connects directly with the main cavity. However this is only a possibility and not likely to be the cause
The timing was checked with a timing wheel and shows the exhaust opening for 100degrees the transfer 78 degreesand an inlet period of 76 degrees.
Before any running could take place a simple cylinder head to take a glow plug was made the internal shape simulating the original with no attempt to reduce compression. Indeed I would think given the quick method of producing the shape it is possibly very slightly higher.
A propellor driver and brass collet were made but this would not grip as it had nothing to push back against on the 5/16 dia parallel shaft. The front housing was bored out to take a larger phos bronze sleeve and the crankshaft diameter increased with a high carbon steel sleeve loctited on and then turned between centres to a running fit.
Using standard 80:20 Methanol/Oil glow fuel the first attempts at starting showed a total impossiblity to control the fuel flow from the crude needle arrangement the engine simply flooding and refusing to start.
A simple venturi was then turned up from ali with an increase in the bore size to 6 mm and a slight 8 degree taper in the inlet end. A basic 3mm dia spraybar was made with a much finer thread and needle taper. Whilst the bore was increased the choke area is possibly slightly smaller than the original (Visual comparison)
At this stage these are the only alterations to the engine - one a practical need
(crankshaft) the other an improvement on fuel supply. I really do not think the original 'carb' is up to the task - certainly for glow and which will probably be the same for petrol.
The compression with the new head is good but not excessive and the piston seal likewise. After quite some flicking (I have never used a starter) and some finger biting 'pops' the engine began to fire intermittently before running - I believe - in an identical fashion to yours. (It certainly sounded the same) Thing was it took a few seconds for the penny to drop. It wasn't actually running! but merely oscillating - firing alternately back and forth quite happilly. Gradually closing the needle (about 31/2 turns open) a few degrees at a time the engine suddenly gave a couple of burps and burst forth into a free and easy run albeit backwards as side ports will do. The finning on this engine is 'marginal' to say the least and with that solid head it was difficult to keep cool but I have had several runs today like this oscillating at first followed by running 'properly' in either direction two or three minutes at a time. Like all lapped piston glow engines though virtually impossible to hot start so plenty of tea breaks!
My old analogue tacho, languishing in the model box unused for several years is typically now not working but I would hazard a guess about 4000 or so on a 13 x 5 Zinger wood prop. I hope for a loan of one so more on this later.
Now whether this is happening to yours given the need for a spark at the top of each stroke I don't know but the similarity in sound as well as visual appearance to your video is striking. I'm sure you realise Alan but I'm not saying this is what is happening to yours merely my observations on this one but it's probably worth another look. Its easy enough to spot though by the difference in draught from the propellor - virtually none whilst oscillating but a good breeze - forward or back otherwise!
Based on todays experiences then my opinion at this stage is that the fuel system delivery is definitely critical to this engines make up. The second half of Hugh's statement 'if it will run on glow it will run on petrol' is yet to be proved but so far, with the first half out of the way, I feel I'm on the right track.
If you are not able to follow the same path regarding making parts then once I have (or not as the case maybe) got it running as intended then you are more than welcome to these bits.
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| Ramon Wilson | 04/03/2010 16:58:05 |
1655 forum posts 617 photos | If you are not able to follow the same path regarding making parts then once I have (or not as the case maybe) got it running as intended then you are more than welcome to these bits.
And so now to discover the delights of 'spark manufacture'
Regards for now - Ramon
PS I have taken some pics as well as some 'video' on the still camera.
I'll try to get them posted later.
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| Ramon Wilson | 04/03/2010 17:27:45 |
1655 forum posts 617 photos | Hi again
These pics are taken retrospectively - it appears I deleted the ones previously taken when running the engine!
So, for those who have an interest - (grannies of course - the usual).
 Shows the increase on shaft dia, collet and prop driver. The cam is the original.
 Just about shows here no piston port and the long (and large) transfer passage
 Checking the timing
 The two heads - the depth is the same but the original is sligthly more concave.  The parts for the intake tube and spraybar. The needle is .048 piano wire the needle thread 8BA (mild steel studding drilled through) The cross hole and the hole the needle seals is .037 dia
 These last two were taken in an attempt to try to capture the difference in oscillating and running (in case the video doesn't materialise - I haven't used that before) They don't really capture it but the first is when the oscillation is occuring the second after it has cleared itself. The only indication is the prop and I accept it's not particularly convincing . I will now try to get that video sorted then!
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All Forum Topics > I/C Engines > Hallam Engine