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mgj	18/11/2009 18:29:12
1017 forum posts 14 photos	If I may suggest it, this one needs putting to bed, because we are in danger of a lot of misinformation, being offered as opinion. So a few facts. Ti is a medium weight metal (sorry Chris but we agree on most else) whose density is about 2/3rds that of steel and which gets is reputation for light weight, not because its density is low, but because it offers a very high stiffness to weight ratio. Thus, if you get your stress engineering and notch control right, you can use it in relatively thin sections. Like most metal, from sodium, and calcium onwards though iron, lead and uranium, ti will burn - that is to say oxidise rapidly, given sufficient heat and oxygen. However, Ti comes from a totally different part of the periodic table from sodium and magnesium, and by definition will behave in a completely different and less energetic way. There is no possible way that it can burn like magnesium because its bonding properties say it cannot. Unlike magnesium and its close relative sodium, it is most unlikely to burn and continue burning, and the products of cmbustion/oxidisation are an inert white powder. Magnesium of course produces a hydroxide, which is caustic and very similar in behaviour to sodium hydroxide, otherwise known as caustic soda. So that tells you something about the characteristics and energy outputs involved Now because of its resistance to burning and heating , - it is frequently used on the leading edges of the wings of supersonic aircraft and missiles, and on the noses of guided weapons which operate at very high mach numbers. Further if you look at some fires involving both Ti an Al, the ali has burned in the presence of a fuel, (such as Avtag or Avcat), but the Ti has not. In short, you are more likely to get a fire turning aluminium than you are Ti, and I am not aware of any dire warnings being issued about Ali. Equally were there any significant risk of fire during machining, I would point you to BAe Filton who used CNC machinery to machine the engine frames of Harriers. These were quite complex frames consisting of the outline of the air intakes and the engine front hanger - 3 big holes and 2 stubs like a figure of 8 +. these were hacked out of a solid chunk of 4" thick Ti. There were no special fire precautions - indeed the machine was largely unattended. So engine frames, nosecaps and the periodic table. Someone somewhere is getting a little wide of the mark. Ollie. Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 18/11/2009 18:32:01
chris stephens	18/11/2009 18:53:22
1049 forum posts 1 photos	Hi Meyrick, Guilty as charged, but in my defence I was using the term as a comparative not absolute one. When compared to most metals that are used by hobbyists, barring Aluminium, it is "light". A minor thing to quibble over, compared to the main point, I think you will agree. Glad to let the whole matter drop, then I can get back to making things. Who is "Ollie"? chriStephens
mgj	18/11/2009 23:28:57
1017 forum posts 14 photos	I believe that you and I were referred to as Stan and Olly, and I opted for Olly because a. I got in first. b. I am more likely to be the more spherical. Initially I thought it a rather ill mannered and trivial point - manners making the man? I don't think that either of us have resorted to pointless personal jibes - but at the end of the day I don't think mind being compared to a genius in his field. Density of Ti. Fair enough. I only put it that way because many think its a sort of super ali, and are quite surprised to find just how heavy it is. (In absolute rather than relative terms) Ollie. Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 18/11/2009 23:33:02
chris stephens	18/11/2009 23:54:14
1049 forum posts 1 photos	Hi Ollie, I get you now, I had not realized that some one would think of the two of us as a double act, let alone to use such a complimentary one. I can't say I pay too much attention to some posts. You would have thought if he had intended to be pejorative, as I would have expected since he seems to disagree with most things, he would have picked a pairing more akin to say Hitler and Himmler or Burke and Hare. I'll settle for Stan, just don't flutter your tie in my direction, unless you mean it. A very complimented and flattered Stan
Circlip	19/11/2009 18:50:54
1723 forum posts	Firstly let me apologise to the other fori members for likening two to Laurel and Hardy, it was an insult to them (L & H) and at least THEY were funny. OK, how magnanimous of you Mr Griffith-Jones to draw a line under something YOU deem to be missinformed and a personal opinion. Thankfully free speech and opinions are not restricted or the patent of your goodself. As we've all had your carreer and qualifications stuffed down our throats, I'm surprised you have the time to waste on us lesser mortals, especially the F***wits you obviously abhor. One of the ways to communicate the safe operation of, as I mentioned in another post, this HOBBY, is for those without a lifetime in the trade to ask what some may class as stupid questions, so when you try to quote the periodic table to show the distance or not of various elements to each other perhaps you would like to consider Alumin. and Iron? Now ANY F/wit knows not to grind Aluminium? or perhaps NOT if you have just entered the hobby. Same with Iron. Perhaps you could enlighten the assembled throng on how Railway lines were welded or even cut?? and Steel doesn't burn? A dry cell and wire wool disprove THAT misnomer. I can only repeat, tell those that have had Titanium fires that it doesn't burn, and as far as its use in muddle ingineering wasn't a series of pikkies at the top of the page showing clock wheel cutting using Ti.? More and more "Exotic" materials are being used daily by amateurs whose mates have given them a piece of metal cos they use it. IIRC some of the lowly Beetle castings were Magnesium? One or two safety prickorshuns save a lot of tears before bedtime so either think about some wise words or pre warnings to help the lesser knowledgible or in THIS topic, you don't have to reply. As far as the minimal use of Ti. in the UK aerospace industry, Lockheed pioneered many of the usages and manufacturing techniques in the production of the SR71 very many years ago. Seem to remember the Russians made a submarine out of it too. Regards Ian.
David Clark 1	19/11/2009 19:26:58
3357 forum posts 112 photos 10 articles	Hi There I doubt model engineers will ever got titanium hot enough to burn. I believe that if you don't know the answer, no question is stupid. Can we cut the arguing out a bit and get on with constructive posting. regards david Edited By David Clark 1 on 19/11/2009 19:28:01
Martin Cottrell	19/11/2009 21:58:39
297 forum posts 18 photos	Hi all, I have to say that I have found this particular post both informative and highly entertaining! A heady mix of science, wit and sarcasm so eloquently delivered through the rich and colourful verbage that is our English language! As an aspiring "model maker" and someone with more than a passing interest in all things mechanical (I dare not label myself "Engineer" in present company!), I have gleened from this post that certain precautions should be taken when machining titanium but that I am not likely to cause too many problems in a "home workshop" environment. More pertinant to me were the comments regarding grinding of steel & aluminium as both materials are used liberally in my workshop. Keep the helpful tips coming chaps and please don't stop the heated debates (arguements?!) on my behalf! Regards, Martin.
chris stephens	19/11/2009 23:36:49
1049 forum posts 1 photos	Hi Martin, Don't worry you will be an old hand soon and as long as you keep an open mind, listen to reason, not dogma, try out things you feel confident with and be careful with things that you don't, you will have a lot of pleasure and satisfaction from your hobby. Remember the more you know, the more you can do! It is not Aluminium and Steel that is the problem, it is fine Aluminium dust, and rust, again dust. The two when mixed and then lit produce copious amounts of heat and molten iron,( not steel). Its use is/was for welding things like railway lines as someone else tried to say. The moral is, don't grind or belt sand the two without cleaning up the first one first. You do clean up after yourself of course, don't you. Just a another tip, if you use a vacuum cleaner to suck up the dust, don't. You are just mixing them in a different place, where there are electrical sparks. I am glad you were entertained by the "differences of opinion" but it served no purpose at all, if you didn't learn something useful from it. Something like "I have heard two sides, I shall now go out and do some research for myself". Here I could go into the different attitudes fostered by the education systems, trade v academia, that prevailed for a long time in this country, but this is an engineering site not a philosophical/history one. chriStephens (Stan)
Robert Mullan	20/11/2009 10:43:46
12 forum posts	Why do model engineers have to be so rude? And the babyish use of words like "muddle ingineering" and "prikorshuns" is not actually very clever or funny. In my other hobby (building model ships) people are gentle, supportive and polite. I have been speculating about the reason and have concluded that one possibility is that model shipbuilding is international and the forums are frequented by many people (particularly North Americans) who seem to understand the whole fellow-traveller ethos. Model engineering, at least on this website, is parochial and populated by old men. No doubt some of you will want to jump to the defence of the beleaguered old English gentleman. If you do, please can you try to be well-mannered and informative, a strategy that Stan and Ollie seem to have managed reasonably well in the circumstances.... By the way, I think a forum for health and safety is an evidently good idea but if anyone uses the word 'elfins' in the mistaken belief that they sound friendlier... well! Buster Keaton
Circlip	20/11/2009 11:54:43
1723 forum posts	Sorry Chris, I've separated it to make the point I was trying to make more understandable, :- "and Steel doesn't burn? A dry cell and wire wool disprove THAT misnomer." Just to give the correct name for the Alum. / Iron "mixture Martin it's called Thermite, and NO referance to Steel should be inferred on that sentance. Oh dear, Robert/Buster, Firstly, as a "Boatie" I'm sure that you have been classed as a "Boy with a Toy boat"??? ALL strands of the modelling hobbies wether boats planes or trains attract dispariging remarks by the uniformed observers, so in bringing our hobbies descriptions down to terms THEY can comprehend, it saves people like yourself ( NO insult intended) getting uptight due to THEIR ignorance of whats involved in generating/making a miniature replica for them to tut. You obviously haven't come across some of the bloated beachmaster /pondside Admirals in your chosen other interest??? Regards Ian.
Peter Gain	20/11/2009 12:09:31
103 forum posts	To The Moderator, Is it possible to have two separate forum theads? One for sensible augument, debate, and information exchange and a separate one for the sarcastic, supposedly funny, and downright childish out pourings. Peter Gain.
Robert Mullan	20/11/2009 12:17:06
12 forum posts	[quote]Oh dear, Robert/Buster, Firstly, as a "Boatie" I'm sure that you have been classed as a "Boy with a Toy boat"??? ALL strands of the modelling hobbies wether boats planes or trains attract dispariging remarks by the uniformed observers, so in bringing our hobbies descriptions down to terms THEY can comprehend, it saves people like yourself ( NO insult intended) getting uptight due to THEIR ignorance of whats involved in generating/making a miniature replica for them to tut. You obviously haven't come across some of the bloated beachmaster /pondside Admirals in your chosen other interest??[/quote] Actually the only person who is insulting about 'toy boats' is my wife, who is a special case and hasn't done it for a long time. I only build static models, which by and large are nice objects in themselves when finished. This also explains why I never run into the pondside admirals (no pond...). i have to say I find the Model Engineer website by and large very interesting and helpful, apart from the occasional insults and facetiousness, which sometimes make me feel uncomfortable.* Can I propose the Lady Chatterley Test? When you post a comment ask yourself 'would you like your wife or servant to read it?' If the answer is 'No because they would laugh at me or think I was stupid' then perhaps the comment ought to be changed. I really don't mind differences of opinion forcefully expressed - these exchanges are often illuminating. They are better when they are written with the thought in the back of one's mind that they will be read by people other than the contributors, in particular beginners like me! *Because of the Test.
chris stephens	20/11/2009 12:34:34
1049 forum posts 1 photos	Hi Robert, What a splendid idea, a forum/post for Health and Safety, there is nothing wrong with Health and Safety, despite some peoples opinions to the contrary. The excesses attributed to H&S are more likely to be the result of over zealous "Risk Assessments". So, if we can keep a sense of proportion and stick to the subject/facts, barring a few humourous anecdotes, I for one, am all for it. Re your third paragraph, may I say "thank you kind Sir." I am sure I speak for M G-J , too. chriStephens PS You might not believe the following but, I will come to Circlip's defence, well partly, the reference to "Muddle" engineering does have a precedent in Model Engineering mag. There was for many years a cartoon strip depicting the exploits of a slightly inept , IIRC , called Chuck, the Muddle Engineer. The "Ingineering" I shall not comment on. c. Edited By chris stephens on 20/11/2009 12:57:49
ChrisH	20/11/2009 14:26:30
1023 forum posts 30 photos	By and large I have enjoyed reading through the posts in this threads even though some seem to be a bit on the acrimonious side - saucers of milk to all concerned I'd say - and found the actual safety information re working various materials interesting and informative. However the effect today when I had to purchase a couple of 2mm dia drills from my local hardware store and on the way home found they were HSS Titanium was to immediately think ' gosh, I do hope it doesn't burst into flames when I use them, tricky stuff this titanium, read all about it'. And before anyone jumps in to a reply - ONLY JOKING ! ChrisH Edited By ChrisH on 20/11/2009 14:27:00
mgj	20/11/2009 17:50:10
1017 forum posts 14 photos	MGJ is not getting drawn further on this one. I have said all that I need or wish to say, and I think it would be much wiser if hatchets were buried. Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 20/11/2009 17:51:48 Edited By meyrick griffith-jones on 20/11/2009 18:14:07
Richmond	20/11/2009 18:02:03
73 forum posts 632 photos 64 articles	Gents, I have tried to keep out of this thread so far ( free speech and all ). Everyone has differing opinions..... but I think some comments might be becoming a little personal. Please refrain, and restrain yourselves Heath and Safety is an emotive subject, but I am sure it can be discussed in a civilised manner. I wont lock this thread yet.....but I wont have any hestitation should the comments not be reined in somewhat. Rgds
Ian Abbott	20/11/2009 19:39:21
279 forum posts 21 photos	A couple of things. First, safety. Of the models. In my early teens I built a couple of ship models, rigging, sails, all meticulously rendered. My mother "dusted" them and then put "them away" in a big "toy box" along with balsa and paper aeroplanes. Then put books on top. My wife is also a "stacker"...... I'm making sure that she can't see the screen as I write this. And, more seriously. Something which hasn't been around for many years is carbon-tetrachloride. I don't think that you can buy it any more, but poking around the old barn the other day which the owners are converting to a cottage, reminded me that there may still be some of those old Pyrene pump fire extinguishers which had carbon-tet in them. This stuff is deadly. It puts fires out by depriving them of oxygen. It can also put people out the same way. When I was an apprentice, carbon-tet was used by electricians for washing motors out. No ventilation of course, bare hands. This stuff is do deadly that we could shoot flies out of the air with a squirt oil can. It killed them in flight! Anyway, like lacquer thinners, it destroys brain cells and the nervous system from inhalation and through the skin. Lesson, if you find an old fire extinguisher at the back of an old workshop, get someone from the fire station to take care of the contents. Ian
Circlip	20/11/2009 20:28:08
1723 forum posts	Aw Ian,don't be a spoilsport, the heavy solvents and cleaning fluids you mention were commonplace when we were kids and most of us have managed to survive with one or two brain cells intact. We can't uninvent things, (Sadly in the case of mobile phones) but given a common sense approach to their use and KNOWING the hazards involved, why treat them any differently. Water is a dangerous liquid, you can drown in it and if you pour it into a strong acid?????? I would be the last to scoff at Safety issues, why would I have started this thread, the only problem is the younger generations ignorance to what WE learned in normal day to day usage. I only needed to be informed that smoking over a trike tank (Trichlorethylene, later changed to "Safer" trichlorethane????) formed Phosgene in the smokers lungs. I already KNEW what Phosgene was. Banning or shying away doesn't solve the problem, but education allows us to use things safely. Remember, only some of a "Certain" age know how to fix a plug onto a cable correctly?? Thanks Lyyne Fawls-Wood, thanks a bundle. Regards Ian. Edited By Circlip on 20/11/2009 20:29:10
mgj	20/11/2009 21:16:04
1017 forum posts 14 photos	Yes- and heated carbon tet turns into something very very nasty. I have been told variously both mustard gas and phosgene, (hopefully at different times!). I'm not enough of a chemist to know the truth - but nasty it is. However it was used as a dry cleaning agent, and a number of workers had lungs badly, and permanently affected when garments were ironed too soon. -------- On a more mundane sort of level, I was always taught never to wear gloves or loose clothes while tuning or milling, for fear of entrapment. And always to wear gloves when cleaning down milling machines, because of the needle type swarf.. And although its fun, on a drill press, with sharp bits you can get wonderful long curls of swarf - but if they catch and spin with the bit, you can get a very nasty cut. So its not good to keep ploughing on, but keep stopping and break up the swarf. With apologies to grannies.
chris stephens	20/11/2009 21:55:49
1049 forum posts 1 photos	Hi Guys, Not that I wish to be seen to be starting up our double act again......... When I am drilling holes on the lathe, I always stop the in feed every few moments, so that the long curls are not too long, I take satisfaction in getting nice even but short lengths of swarf, makes a boring job (yes, pun fully intended) a challenge. Makes clearing up easier, too. Regarding Safety. If I might enter into the wonderful world of semantics, always a dangerous place to go, some of today's warnings are a little bit OTT. Take the one about smoking for example, the warnings on packets say categorically that cigarettes WILL kill, whereas it should say MAY harm or in extremis kill. There are many people who have smoked for years without ill effect. I myself was a forty a day man for about twenty years, stopped about twenty years ago, got bored with it. My lungs have been X-rayed many times since and there is no noticeable damage. I know many people HAVE been harmed by and in fact died from smoking related illness, ( in a past life I trained in a Respiratory Physiologist lab at Guy's and at Harefield hospitals) and I would never suggest that anyone should start. My point is that the warnings should be truthful, not emotive. chriStephens

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