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Old vs new milling machine

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Sonic Escape23/06/2023 12:53:57
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Posted by Dave Wootton on 23/06/2023 11:20:52:

That does put a whole new spin on things!!! Collection could prove difficult and expensive.

Are machines readily available in Romania? just out of interest, I was wondering whether the Chinese machines are available as easily as here, and if there was a market in ex industrial machinery. Always interested in how other countries do things. My son is a professional musician and regularly visits Romania and says it is a spectacularly beautiful place.

I'm sure you are aware that this could have a marked bearing on the desirability of the pictured mill.

Dave

Shipping from UK is not difficult. Just very expensive. In the past I moved my stuff in Spain or Germany when I was living there using a company that has a large database of cars moving across the continent. You can rent space in a truck that is passing nearby and it is not that expensive. But if it is from outside EU the cost explode. And there is also paperwork involved in this case. That is another cost.

Yes, all Chinese machines are available here just as easily as everywhere. Including more decent brands like Sieg, Paulimot and other shipped from Germany. Some even with free shipping. There is a Bernardo shop 4km from me. And of course Ebay, Amazon and Aliexpress drop the items to my door.

The biggest difference here comparing with UK or Germany or other places in the west is the lack of a market for old industrial machines. This ones are is nice to buy them from as close to you as possible. And the few choices available are 90% old Romanian models. They did some clones here of various foreign models in the past. But the quality is not great. Old people would often praise them, together with the "good old days when everybody had a job and a free apartment", but most of them are junk in my opinion. They simply didn't saw anything better to compare with.

Most Romanian milling machine are called FUS xx. FUS stands for toolroom milling machine. There were made in factories like Infratirea (brotherhood), Marghita, Cugir. Here is a search on the largest local market just to have an idea. In general the price for one mill that is expected to be in working order starts from at least the equivalent of 1300 GBP. The one that I want to buy is 700GBP. So if it is in decent condition it would be a nice deal considering the local market. And the accessories.

Nature is indeed beautiful and diverse here. No complains. Only the fact that it is an inhabited country can sometimes cause inconveniences.

Edited By Sonic Escape on 23/06/2023 12:54:36

Edited By Sonic Escape on 23/06/2023 13:15:09

Sonic Escape23/06/2023 13:05:37
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Posted by Chris Gunn on 23/06/2023 12:03:35:

Sonic, there looks to be several very expensive accessories with the machine, so maybe worth a gamble if the price is right. If the motor is in the base it may be relatively easy to change it for an up to date motor and then fit a VFD.

Chris Gunn

Yes, I think the same. I already decided to buy it. Next week the seller will bring a crane to load it and I'll move it into my garage.

Edited By Sonic Escape on 23/06/2023 13:06:07

Dave Wootton23/06/2023 15:36:52
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Thanks for posting the link, very interesting finding out how things stand in other countries, seems that type of mill is more common there than in the UK. Very versatile style of machine, I hope you get on well with it, the accessories would as Chris says be very expensive and desirable for a Thiel here. If you rebuild it some posts on here would be of great interest. The motor , in a Thiel anyway, is in the base, belt driven to the main gearbox and is flange mounted, so would be easy to change for a modern one with inverter if you wanted to go down that route. The Thiel motor is 2.2HP 1500 RPM, I did at one time think of changing it for an inverter driven one, but with a pilot motor on a static converter the machine ran fine. The pilot motor was fitted at the recommendation of transwave the makers of my static converter, evidently the starting load to detach the brake cone was too much without the pilot. The instant braking was a great feature. I have got some rather scrappy information on the Thiel including a wiring diagram if it's any help I can scan it to you, just send your email address. The price seems a bit of a bargain with the accessories so don't blame you for buying it.

Dave

Sonic Escape29/06/2023 00:22:28
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Today my milling machine arrived! Two friends went to bring it. It was a 12h journey and I didn't have time to go. The mill also took a ferry ride. It was on the other side of the Danube. Unloading it was epic. They insisted that if we put it on a pallet truck and tilt the truck, then the mill will go down a ramp and we will be able to hold it with that small yellow excavator. I was watching this experiment from a distance unwilling to participate smiley
The mill was tilting dangerously because the pallet truck is to narrow. This is a 1.2 ton machine. And the center of mass is high. After a while I convinced them to stop and I called that orange truck with a big crane. Bellow the crane operator was just getting out of his truck to check the situation. He was able to lift the mill over the small truck and to lower it right in front of the garage. 

I didn't inspected to much the mill. The tables are indeed without a scratch. But they are stuck. You have to put a lot of effort to rotate the wheels. I didn't insisted too much. The electrical wiring looks fine, but I would not turn it on without a lot of checking. There is a single stamp with 1979 year. No other markings. But it is clear a Romanian clone. I recognized the fuse holders and thermal overload relays. They are local models typical of that era.
The accessories are incredibly heavy. The rotating table I can barely flip it on the workbench. And the other table is impossible to lift it alone.

First thing I checked was what tool holder is using. Unfortunately I don't think it is Morse. And for sure is not ISO. I found a taper in horizontal milling accessories. I have no idea what it does but it fits perfectly into the spindle. The dimensions are like this:

I didn't find any standard taper with 30µ/mm. So this will be a first problem. I think that in the worst case I should be able to make on the lathe an adapter to Morse 3. Maybe. Overall I find it very interesting. A lot of buttons and handles that I have no clue what are they doing. And the lathe looks almost like a toy comparing to it. Everything is heavy and solid.

One annoying thing is that if you rotate the wheels nothing happens. You have to push them and to keep them pressed. While rotating them. There is a spring inside. I suppose it has something to do with automatic feed. But this must be a design choice, not a defect. I'll have a better look next weekend.

 

Edited By Sonic Escape on 29/06/2023 00:32:05

Michael Gilligan29/06/2023 05:45:29
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Sounds like you are at the beginning of a wonderful journey …

Please do keep us informed of progress.

MichaelG.

Sonic Escape29/06/2023 21:17:48
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Today I discovered a few things. The milling machine is a FUS 250. Now I can look for the manual. The spindle is using a short Morse 5. So it is not that bad. And last, I need some kind of crane. Without it is impossible to do any serious work to this machine. For example I have the rotating table on the workbench and I can't lower it on the floor. And this is not the heaviest part. I can't imagine trying to hold the spindle with one hand and with the other one unscrewing the last bold to remove it smiley

The markings were covered with grease. If I clean them with acetone they seems to be in good condition.

I removed a panel and I found out where are most of the gears. They look ok to me. The edges of the gears are sharp. I think this machine has an oil pump. I need only to remove the cracked paint but otherwise I don't want to touch this complicated parts.

Chris Gunn29/06/2023 21:52:05
459 forum posts
28 photos

Sonic, if it is like the Alexander copy of the Eckel, what you think is an oil pump could be a gear coolant pump.

You will see where the pipes go.

Chris Gunn

Sonic Escape30/06/2023 09:03:55
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The reason why I thought that is has an oil pump was the fact that there was no oil left inside. I assumed that it was suppose to flow and when idle there is not much oil left. But then I had a better look at the panel that I removed. There are two small windows (covered with paint) where you can check the oil level. And 4 small holes to add or remove the oil. So there is no need to circulate the oil.

old mart30/06/2023 19:22:01
4655 forum posts
304 photos

It might be possible to incorporate an ISO30 into your short MT5, then much better tooling than MT3 could be used. The drawbar for the ISO30 would hold both in and the steeper angle would not be likely to disturb the MT5 when changing tools.

Taf_Pembs30/06/2023 19:48:48
126 forum posts
96 photos
Posted by Michael Gilligan on 29/06/2023 05:45:29:

Sounds like you are at the beginning of a wonderful journey …

Please do keep us informed of progress.

MichaelG.

I'm with Michael on this one, looks like you are going to have some interesting and fun times ahead..!

Look forward to seeing the progress and good luck with it yesbeer

Ady130/06/2023 19:56:08
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You're rapidly getting very serious. Good luck with it all.

That orange truck guy looks like a very useful man to know

Sonic Escape30/06/2023 23:01:18
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Thank you. I think that I'll do more serious progress with the mill this winter. Now I'm busy building a chop saw.

I didn't search too much yet, but I think I could find an MT5 to ISO30 adapter. Or to ER40 maybe. But assuming I don't find a short MT5. How about if I cut one? The problem would be to make again the thread for the draw bar. Is it possible use a HSS tap into an harden piece of steel?

Or how about if I made the tool holder myself? For example and ER40 holder with a short MT5 taper. Ignoring for now the accuracy required, what would be the problem if I'll make it from mild steel? How easy it would deform ?

Ady130/06/2023 23:37:31
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I would check the net, youtube etc to see what others did who had the same issue as you

Get some pointers and options

Dave Wootton01/07/2023 07:56:58
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I think Chris is correct if it's the same as the Thiel 158 there is a geared coolant pump under the gearbox. The machine looks ok inside, worth checking the oil seals in the base of the gearbox where the feed drive shaft exits. Hopefully possible to change without dismantling everything. As I said in my previous post mine had to have every oil seal changed as they were all rock hard and deteriorating. But it had stood for years in a tin barn and had been cooked every summer and frozen every winter! Hopefully yours should be ok, worth checking with some oil before you get too involved, as it has no oil in it it may well have leaked over a long period of time, if it is not too bad I think I'd be tempted to live with it .

One idea I saw on the net somewhere when I was looking up this sort of mill regularly was in a US machine shop that had a superbly equipped one. They had a trolley stands with the various tables on them and could wheel it into place and lower the table on it to remove and change with no lifting. Obviously they had plenty of space to store them, but a clever idea, probably safer than a crane. Looks like you did OK with that machine, look forward to seeing your progress.

I have made a ER30 collet adaptor out of ordinary FCMS with no hardening, It's not been used intensively , only home workshop use but it still works fine after ten years or so. Always careful to clean everything before use , as it is unhardened and could be damaged by trapped swarf.

Dave

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