Member postings for julian atkins

Hi Bryan,

I doubt the boiler would be built to the original design as it was seriously flawed and quickly altered.

Externally and superficially it is a nice compact loco.

But it is an old design by a long forgotten model engineer, and the construction series was not a great success.

GLR/Kennions continue to market it because it shares the same castings as their 'Butch'.

If the loco you intend to purchase is 'in ticket' then have a drive of same before purchase. Or else get someone experienced to have a drive while you watch on behind on the driving trolley.

If it doesnt have a current boiler ticket and paper trail of previous tickets then that opens a different can of worms.

Cheers,

Julian

Hi Bryan,

Designed by Jack Austen Walton from the late 1940s over a very extended period described in ME. The boiler designed by Jack was a very poor dangerous design. Lots of features departed from LBSC standards just for the sake of it apparently, and you have already noted the problem with the grate and ashpan over the rear axle.

If made to drawings (the boiler design was quickly altered) I would give it a miss. If the builder has made substantial improvements then it might be worth a punt.

The Kennions/GLR 'Butch' is very very similar and there is one in my workshop at the moment for repair and is perhaps the most badly designed miniature loco I have ever encountered.

I have seen lots of 'Twin Sisters' over the years on display but never one running. I dont ever recall the design being held in high regard.

I have always taken the view that what is in essence a shunting loco is unsuitable for passenger hauling in miniature simply due to the boiler proportions (small grate area) and you end up having to force the firebed resulting in clinkering etc.

Just my personal opinion of course.

Cheers,

Julian

Hi Howard,

If the ejector pipe went just into the smokebox it would destroy the smokebox vacuum.

It must go up the chimney without affecting the smokebox vacuum or the smokebox draughting and as Bob states there are various ways to achieve this.

It would be interesting to know whether your loco is the double chimney or single chimney type that Bob hints at.

The double chimney type is far better.

Cheers,

Julian

Edited By julian atkins on 09/09/2017 22:04:13

Sorry to hear the builder used steel.

After alum the 4BA threads should be ok, and ok for new 4BA fitted bolts made of non magnetic stainless. I make up all my own bolts out of stainless for boiler fittings, a job I hate but short cuts only lead to problems later on.

I have used hard drawn phos bronze bolts in the past but it isnt as tough as stainless.

Commercial bolts are often undersize plus are threaded up to the bolt head whereas a plain unthreaded portion through the removable dome is desirable.

Cheers,

Julian

Edited By julian atkins on 09/09/2017 21:57:42

Hi Clive,

Yes, the offset is the 3/64" you refer to. It was a guess by Martin Evans. He never understood the niceties of Stephensons valve gear. The correct figure for the suspension offset is 0.223".

This much larger amount is due to using launch type expansion links with direct drive and outside admission.

Don't follow Martin Evans' description of how to set the valve gear. You will need negative lead in full gear so that the lead is not excessive when the gear is notched up.

Cheers,

Julian

Hi Phil,

I know exactly what you mean.

Just a bit of extra dressing required with my Thor hammer using the copper face on the ends.

Cheers,

Julian

Hi Clive,

Do not under any circumstances anneal the brass sheet.

I would suggest making up an internal former out of standard kitchen work top with a radiused edge. The brass is then sandwiched between this and another piece of kitchen top or steel which is then clamped on top but exposing the length to be shaped over the lower kitchen top.

The brass must be very securely fixed so that it cannot slip.

The exposed brass is then slowly beaten to shape.

This is the set up I have used which is rather Heath Robinson-ish. I ought to have added something better to secure the brass as it did slip. However this really is my kitchen work top and drilling it was out of the question!

I have used the same sort of set up for GWR tender bodies and bunkers and pannier tanks. There is something to be said for having material greater than the height of the tender sides as the bend is more easily formed. Then trim back to the required height.

I presume you know there are 2 types of tender drawing for PoW ? Do you have copies of ME for 1971?

When you get to the valve gear it can be significantly improved by increasing the suspension offset on the expansion links.

Cheers,

Julian

I am not sure I can help a great deal.

I have the drawings for Don Young's 5"g O2 'Fishbourne' and the relevant MEs for the construction series in 1967.

My set of drawings would date from the early 1990s. I started on the chassis and cylinder block but never went further than the chassis so never got round to any platework.

The drawings are copies from Don Young's original pencilled drawings which apart from the GA were never redrawn in ink. They are rather faint in places and require a good deal of study. They were Don Young's first published design.

Don kept the master drawings till shortly before his death, and would amend the masters if any glaring errors cropped up.

I knew a number of people who built this design, and I also drove their competed locos. The only errors I can recall are in respect of the 'westinghouse' pump and the steam supply for it, and the shape of the chimney top. The boiler needs updating to provide a boiler bush for the regulator smokebox flange etc.

One elderly club member with no engineering or railway background built an example as his first and only miniature loco and he really struggled with the drawings and making the bits. It is not really a beginners loco.

It also helps if you are familiar with the fullsize O2 'Calbourne' on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway in interpreting the drawings. The drawings for the side tanks and cab and bunker are rather complicated.

Cheers,

Julian

Edited By julian atkins on 28/08/2017 10:57:31

Hi Evelyn,

Your father was building rather a rare loco in miniature - a LNER V1 or V3 2-6-2T.

He appears to have based the chassis on the Harry Jackson of York drawings for the 3.5"g Green Arrow.

Your father appears to have designed the boiler himself. If this could be shown to be a close copy of a published and proven design then this would assist considerably otherwise we are into the realms of a new boiler design and all this entails these days.

I hope you wont take this the wrong way but your father appears to have made a bit of a hash of the silver soldered joints on the partly made boiler. This may be why he did not progress further. It is difficult to say from a few pics whether the boiler shell joints can be rectified.

The Jackson/Clarkson drawings for the chassis are not for the faint hearted or beginner.

However Martin Evans designed a 5"g V1 'Enterprise' and his drawings would no doubt be of use in completing your father's 3.5"g version.

Whereabouts are you located?

Cheers,

Julian

Edited By julian atkins on 25/08/2017 10:12:18

Edited By julian atkins on 25/08/2017 10:12:46

Just to add a few further details...

LBSC died on 5th November 1967 aged 84 so this year marks the 50th anniversary of his death.

His wife Mabel died in 1972.

LBSC bought 121 Grange Road, Purley Oaks around 1934 together with the nearby plot of land where the 'Polar Route' was constructed.

The house was not sold till after Mabel's death though she had been in a nursing home for awhile.

A Grant of Probate/Letters of Administration would have been required to sell the house. If there was a Will then that would be attached to the Grant of Probate and is a public document and these days a copy can be bought online for £10.

The Will will indicate who inherited LBSC's various copyrights.

LBSC had a younger brother Rudolph who did not die until 1989.

So lots of avenues for further research.

There are different types of UK copyright. LBSC would have multiple copyright in artwork, literature, and design.

It is often thought that LBSC 'worked' solely for Model Engineer magazine. This is not correct, and he wrote for and had designs for miniature steam locomotives published in a number of other publications (one of which English Mechanics was bought by Model Engineer).

He also designed a number of locomotives specifically for certain model engineer suppliers - perhaps the best known of which is GWR 3.5"g 'Lickham Hall' for A J Reeves. The successor to Reeves owns the copyright to this design.

LBSC also built a number of miniature steam locomotives which were never published as designs. Among these are perhaps his most interesting and brilliant creations such as his famous 'Tugboat Annie', and 'Grosvenor'.

I was always under the impression that what LBSC wrote and designed for ME became the copyright of ME. Neil has mentioned ME's current copyright policy but we are here dealing with the original owner of ME and it's successor over the period 1924 to 1967. There is some evidence for my impression when English Mechanics was bought out by ME. Also, Don Young was very careful to retain copyright in his designs and artwork, though I expect ME holds the copyright to his writings for ME.

I was also under the impression that if say Reeves or Kennions sold drawings for a LBSC designed loco that had first appeared in ME then they could only do so if licensed by ME.

Note that Dean is in the USA not the UK.

Cheers,

Julian

Edited By julian atkins on 18/08/2017 08:51:23

Hi Richard,

You have an unread PM

Cheers,

Julian

Hi Richard,

Can you PM me and I will send you via email my list of alterations to Pansy?

The Martin Evans corrections are partly true but do not deal with lots of fundamental errors with the valve gear and much else besides. John Baguley and I arrived at different ways to deal with the valve gear which has considerable problems as drawn, and certain dimensions that are critical (but wrong) are only in the construction series.

Yes, many have been built to the drawings but can you notch up and get the loco to run properly?

I spent many years building a Pansy (now sadly sold and in good hands in Kent). I spent a great deal of time referring to the GWR drawings and LBSC's drawings.

Cheers,

Julian

Hi Steve,

From your pics in your album your friends appear to have bought a Winsons/Modelworks 5"g GWR 14XX tank loco.

I would have said from one of your pics that the steam oil delivery pipe goes into the main steam pipe in the base of the smokebox, the steam pipe being forward of the blastpipe .

The displacement tank is quite hideous and spoils the loco, and ought to be removed IMHO.

This type of simple displacement lubricator is quite unsuitable for a 5"g loco, and should be replaced anyway.

There must be room for a conventional displacement tank under the cab? In one case I made the rear right hand sand box a displacement tank.

You either need to fit a mechanical lubricator, or a proper hydrostatic sight feed displacement lubricator with a steam feed to the base of the displacement tank via a steam valve on the turret/manifold and an outlet pipe from the top of the tank to the sight glass and then onto the main steam pipe.

The steam oil delivery pipe on your example also looks very small. I use 3/32" dia thinwall copper tube.

Cheers,

Julian

Duplicate post

Edited By julian atkins on 25/06/2017 22:53:03

Hi Ron!

I very much enjoyed the clips you sent of the 5"g Black 5 running.

You perhaps ought to clarify that the injector Ben fitted that didn't work wasn't one supplied by him, but was one you bought off a reputable ME supplier off eBAy. I think that is the 3rd injector you have bought that won't work. £150 plus wasted which is scandalous. Glad to hear that one of my own of some age is doing the necessary and working ok.

Cheers,

Julian

You will not notice any appreciable difference between a 16 oz per min injector and an 18 oz per min injector. And what is the stated delivery rate is often different!

Cheers, Julian

Ron has shown one of my album pics which is a simple test of concentricity of drilling for in this case a new steam cone with the lathe running and the drill in the drilled hole absolutely true. Probably a 1mm drill.

The particular problem with Ron's commercially recently bought injectors from reputable ME commercial suppliers is quite simply that they are 'crap' and wont work as sold. That is a damning indictment on the current rubbish peddled by the trade, except for one supplier namely Pavioursteam (usual disclaimer).

Ron is not alone in this respect as I have previously been sent 4 of these examples to try and rectify prior to Ron's 2 examples, and in each case I have told the unfortunate buyers that they are 'bin jobs' and not worth the effort to rectify if indeed this was a realistic prospect. I have been sent a further example today from Australia but bought in the UK. The one of this type that I did try and sort out created a great deal of work in time and effort that on test was as expected very poor performance wise and although worked in a fashion was not to the sort of standard I would regard as acceptable.

The particular problem with these injectors is the very poor combining cones. As per Derek Brown, if new combining cones are required it is a 'bin job' and not worth the effort for us amateurs. I dont mind making new steam cones and delivery cones to someone else's injectors but making new combining cones to fit into a foreign body is fraught with problems and usually unsuccessful.

Cheers,

Julian

Edited By julian atkins on 13/06/2017 23:56:48

Reg Chambers died some years ago.

I think most boiler inspectors would take a view on this as in the UK Reg Chambers was highly regarded. A few pics of the boiler might help to dispel any doubt.

I hope this is of some help. I knew Reg from the mid 1990s, and he built a Super Simplex boiler for a new club loco. I redesigned the Martin Evans boiler and Reg built it accordingly and 20 years later the boiler is as good as when made by Reg.

Cheers,

Julian

Edited By julian atkins on 30/05/2017 20:43:40

Hi Derek,

Don Young's 5"g Railmotor designs No.s 1 and 2 were described in ME 1968/9.

No. 2 has a 4" OD boiler barrel, 2 x 7/8" superheater flues and 13 x 3/8" ordinary tubes.

No.1 has a 4 1/2" OD boiler barrel, 2 x 1" superheater flues and 17 x 7/16" ordinary tubes.

The No.3 originated in the late 1970s/1980/1981 via Harry Lumb and Steve Titley as a LSWR loco using the No.1 boiler. I have the drawings for same somewhere which I cant find at the moment but am quite sure the boiler is the same re superheater flues etc as the No.1 boiler.

The No.1 boiler is a very free steaming boiler and excellent steam producer.

It would take some doing to cram in 4 extra 7/16" OD ordinary flues to replace one of the 1" OD superheater flues.

If you fitted a set of stainless radiant superheater elements to the solitary 1" OD superheater flue I think you would end up with a very good boiler. 6mm with a return bend.

What a nice present to be given!

Cheers,

Julian

Hi Bob,

I have never had any dealing with Cheddar, and appreciate the lack of communication must be more than annoying.

However, it is very well known that there is a very long waiting list with most commercial miniature boiler makers.

Why don't you make the boiler for your Bantam Cock yourself? It is a nice easy boiler to build and should not take more than 6 weeks spare time and even less if you buy a boiler kit for it. I would leave out the combustion chamber though, and add a double flanged throatplate.

Would save you a great deal of time and money compared to a commercial one!

Cheers,

Julian