Member postings for Oily Rag

It is all coming along nicely Pete. It'll be so pretty you won't want to despoil it with nasty old swarf! That Hoffman RT is a nice piece of kit and appears also to be in pristine condition. I've got the same model but only use it on my mill preferring to 'mark out' for drilling jobs, done on the surface plate and then optical centre punching before either into a vice or clamping direct to the table.

What de-ruster have you used? Evap Rust by any chance?

Martin

Keith,

Apologies for repeating myself, it's one of the myriad problems of getting old!

However, in my defence, 'Clogs' has come to my rescue by seeing this (apparently) for the first time. So my repeating it was validated in his instance. It was an insight to the Japanese that Whitworth had calculated the best form of thread overall, when considering the whole application spectrum of threads.

As the Japanese Chief Designer, Mr Kanada, looked at the Whitworth form he declared that it was superior in all its calculations to any other existing thread. I think he was most surprised by his investigations and doubly so that it was created more than 150 years ago and even more so that it was now considered obsolete. Politics have ruled over Engineering in the case of threads and their forms.

The 'cure' of the 7/16 BSW thread was then extended to the use of both 3/16 and 1/4 BSW threads elsewhere on the engine.

Martin

There was a case where a number of years ago I was involved with a 3 litre V10 F1 engine made in the UK by a Japanese manufacturer. The inter cylinder main bearing webs were breaking out of the main cylinder block casting after just 400km running distance in the car. The cracks were forming at the thread roots of the M11 main bearing / sump retaining bolts. The redesign to install M12 would add 7mm to the overall length of the engine and an increase in weight calculated as 2.8kg (the engine was one of the lightest in F1 at around 93kg for a fully dressed unit ). The suggestion was therefore made that we should use MJ11 form threads (MJ being the aerospace form with radiused root form similar to Whitworth ). The cost of MJ11 'specials' and delivery for taps was £400+ and 9 months.

A simple but effective compromise was reached by using 7/16 BSW which cured the crack formation problem. After this the Japanese head of design declared that "Mr Whitworth very clever man!" The taps were bought next day for less than £20. A subsequent re-design saw the adoption of BSW in most of the stressed areas with reductions in bolt sizes and overall engine weight. Sometimes it is difficult to improve on a good design - other times it is sometimes necessary to take a backwards view to see a way forwards

Martin

For engine builders - A good tip for dial indicators for an extended foot is a bicycle spoke. Old spokes will be right for use on a Mercer or a 'new' metric spoke for a Mitutoya.

We used these for setting up a degree plate on engines where we did a 'swing about' TDC off the piston crown down the plug hole (swing about is determining the 0.005" drop either side of the TDC point and splitting the difference ). Also good for setting cam MOP (maximum opening point) by the same method. The spoke can be bent to fit the available space without losing its strength.

Martin

The seller 'Nippynut' has one at £50 currently. Shows signs of some heavy corrosion on the jaw tops and has been cleaned / painted. No connection with the seller! The £200 vice does look to be in remarkable condition, as he claims it is NOS I can certainly believe it.

Martin

As others have said, a single point ground tool or a non 'full form' lay down insert (for example an insert marked 1.5p to 3p metric ) will leave the crests of the threads incorrectly formed. Running a die down will clean the thread up, or better still, a hand held thread chaser will allow the thread to be cleaned up whilst still in the lathe. Generally inserts for imperial threads will be full form as in 12tpi, 14tpi, etc,. But the single point ground tool will still have the same problem of unformed crests in both metric and imperial.

The great problem is screw cutting metric threads, which due to their definition of 'pitch per individual thread' over the imperial system of 'threads per unit measure', require the TDI to use a selection of gears driven off the leadscrew to correctly synch the spindle and leadscrew. This catches many an unwary soul out!

Martin

Tony,

Unless an exporter has 'on the spot' representatives monitoring the product material and processes on a daily routine the supplier will inevitably backslide to maximise their profit. The Chinese mentality is there is only one winner in a business deal and they are determined that it will be them and not the exporter / customer. They have no concept of 'win/win' in a deal only that which is 'win / lose' and it is not going to be they who lose!

This goes for India as well, Rolls Royce have a facility in Tamil Nadu which manufactures gears (Ashanti Gears Ltd,. ) for their engines. They have 12 inspectors on site full time to ensure quality and adherence to specifications. Boeing have a carbon fibre associate facility in Mumbai (Madras) which also has on site Boeing personal to ensure the products are to specification. The earlier discussion in another thread on Holbrook 10B lathes which were made in India at the Alfred Herbert associate factory had UK staff seconded on a three year rotation to oversee the quality and processes were adhered to. I doubt that any of the ME suppliers in the UK have directly based employees at overseas factories as it would increase their overheads and nullify their cost advantages, this makes the 'quality' aspect of the product subject to the whims of the overseas producers and their basic honesty. Admittedly, there seems to be a willingness by the UK based suppliers to take back poor product and this is surely a reflection on their inability to control what comes out of the factories, but reflects the need to protect a reputation. Good 'on them' for at least doing that - woe betide anyone who buys junk off Alibaba or Ebay!

Martin

What paint did you use then? - I'm even more impressed that it is brush applied finish, and not as I thought a 'spray job'. I've used Teamac in the past as they do a good range of colours which have matched my machines original colours - the exception being the QDM 750 discussed elsewhere as it originally had a 'Hammered' finish (reduces the need for an expensively applied filler and rub down by the manufacturer! ). Looks uncannily like Ferguson TE35 grey.

Martin

The table is, as you say, well designed. The slotted underside is very handy for T Nuts or T Bolts. I prefer to use the Nielsen 'mole grip' style table clamps which need a spacer to allow the foot of the ring nut to clamp on the underside, the advantage is the thread is then effectively shortened so the clamp is quickly detached and is easily accessible. These table clamps allow for a smaller drill vice to be used and clamped as the wide spaced slots, although good for heavy vices, is problematic for smaller drill hand vices.

The machined under edge is great for 'G' clamping large pieces of work, another example of how well thought out these machines are. Does your machine have the table '0' position marked?

AJAX's machine is a nice example, and I think is a later machine than mine with a serial number of 20330, against my 19521. I can't see any difference in his top cover though other than the style of badging. Thanks for sharing your machine details AJAX.

I've pretty well nailed my machine down to a 1983 DoM. It carries a BLHA asset number (British Leyland Holdings Asset) which relates to the £1.4 million facility upgrade at Longbridge for the introduction of the Metro model.

Martin

The handle is correct, and the nut is held captive along one edge of its flat against the casting. This allows for easy positioning of the handle in any of six possible orientations by changing the 'nut flat' which is captivated. I have found in use this is a brilliant system and the table clamps and unclamps in just half a turn with ease.

Clamp nut held captive by one of its flats against the table support casting. This makes the handle easy to reposition in any one of six places according to work table overhang.

The handle on mine is same as yours Pete!

Regards,

Martin

Anyone noticed the divergence between BBC time, Apple time and Microsoft time? Apparently it is around 9 to 11 seconds. This was mentioned by a friend of mine who is a Prof at a local university, after he had a student whose dissertation was rejected by the authorities because she had presented it beyond the cut-off time and date. My acquaintance questioned his student about why she presented it too late and she said it was submitted just seconds prior to midnight on the closing date. He investigated the discrepancy and sure enough found the differences were genuine. Wonderful that in a digital world there are competing standards for time!

Martin

Still running MSDOS 3.1.1 - super keys and all! on one computer.

But on this machine I've got Win 10 but using Shell button for old style navigation - can't stand these app based functions.

Martin

How on earth did you manage to get no overspray on the living room walls, floor or ceiling?? I'm impressed.

Martin

Maybe I have been lucky in my machinery, getting it at a good reasonable price or better still being gifted it. My lathe(s) are Raglan Little John's which worked but needed tidying up to make them reliable and I have modified them to make them better than their original designs. Many years ago I was given an Atlas 7" shaper by a farmer for some parts I made for him, it hadn't been used for 30 odd years and was covered in cobwebs and rust, but I rebuilt it to be a fine machine which produces really nice accurate work. Recently I was gifted a heap of rust which underneath was a wonderful Q&S QDM drilling machine, I quickly set to, freed it up, put new bearings into it and have latterly finished it off with a coat of paint and a new dedicated inverter drive for it.

Meanwhile I have an Adcock & Shipley Bridgeport which I am about to begin a restoration project on. I get as much pleasure out of restoring an 'old girl' to her glory as I do in using her! I'll use the Bridgeport for a time as I have a couple of Aciera F3's which meet most of my needs. I'm hankering after a Thiel Model 159 which I know is not in use and the company that have it are looking to scrap it out - so there is the next project after the Bridgeport lined up! By restoring a machine you get to know it intimately and get so much more pleasure out of it.

Martin

JohnP's video is very informative. The first thing I noted was the scrap feedstock which was being melted down, an assortment of aluminium parts which were variously die cast and sand cast items. So the melts will vary continually depending on what is fed into the furnace. Pistons will be high silicon content with a smidgen of copper, die cast motor endplates will have a high zinc content, etc - nowhere was there a strontium flux used to degas the melt, in fact no flux was added (I would expect a Borax powder at some point ) that I could see. The only thing I saw was a bag of (possibly talcum powder ) some 'dust' added to the mould as a release agent. The chiselling of the semi solidified material was interesting as a crude form of 'squeeze' casting - which imparts a grain modification similar to forging.

As for Chris Crew's comments about the CNC machinery used and the design methodology being a great leveller in the production of Third world components, this is both naivety and ample evidence that Chris certainly has little to no knowledge of the importance of materials and processes in an industrial context. Due to the parsimonious nature of business and especially manufacturing in China there is a compelling reason to 'skimp' on both material and process to deliver goods at the lowest possible cost. This even reaches into the home market place and is not just a 'rip off' for Johnny Foreigner. At a major Chinese State jointly owned Motor manufacturer we had to continually fight against poor quality materials and skimped processes - Cylinder blocks that had more holes than Gruyere cheese, because the casting sand was not damp but wet! A serious problem due to the high humidity in China for at least 8 months of the year. Valves that in prototype form were 21/4N steel came in at production level as 10/2N (because it was much cheaper than 21/4N ) and until we tracked the cause down resulted in engine failures at an unprecedented level, the upshot of this was the MD of the suppliers got a 12 year penal sentence! Processes that were agreed at prototype level (heat treatments, quenching, surface finishes, and anti corrosion processes ) were found to be either drastically modified later for production or completely ignored. As I have stated before the problem with the Chinese mentality is that if a thing is poor quality or worse still fails it is not the products fault but due to the 'bad karma' of the person that bought it. I experienced this when I bought an electric kettle from Carrefour in Shanghai, within a week it broke so took it back, they were flabbergasted to think that I had the gall to return a failed item as it reflected on what a bad person I was!!!

Meanwhile in the Westernised Far East - Japan, Korea, and certainly Taiwan - know that the customer is paramount and offer good quality and products which please. I would also add that Vietnam is a growing industrial strength that has / is following the example of the later mentioned countries, despite being a totalitarian Communist regime it has seen the error of the Chinese way. They also have no love of the Chinese after the Sino-Viet war of 1974 when they inflicted the bloodiest of noses on the invading Chinese.

Martin

One other point I forgot to mention above is that my drill is fitted with what I believe is, due to the motor being painted the same colour as the motor mount plate, the original 3 phase motor. Unusually it is of Russian origin! However I was impressed by its quietness and smooth running, the body and end plates are of cast iron so it is not a lightweight unit (tipping the scales at around 10kg ) but it is a 0.75kW (1 HP ) so, I would suggest you up your power to a similar rating. Could it have been supplied with a 1/2 HP motor to the 'edukashun' authorities to limit the damage that 'yooves' could do??

Martin

I reckoned that your drill had only ever run in 2nd lowest gear from the corrosion on the aluminium pulley sheaf, that's what led me to think it had been 'bolted shut'. Probably the missing knob off the detent release for the top cover is another precaution against the 'Elfins. Do you need the details of my knob? (note to moderators - this is not to be taken the wrong way ) I could probably turn one up for you in aluminium, steel or nylon if you wish as I have a ball turning attachment which would make it easy.

One thing I did was re-black all the motor mounting pins, detent pin, depth gauge, table tilt nut, clamping items and other odds and ends which seems to have stopped the corrosion. Most of my parts were red with rust and after de-rusting they soon reverted to their previous state even though they were in a non rusting area. So during this maintenance session (to resite the inverter onto the switch plate which was where the non operating 25V LoVo light was placed. I Metalblak(ed) the parts - which touch wood, seems to have halted the habit of everything trying to revert to ferrous oxide!

As you may have seen in a previous thread asking about Hammerite paint mixing, I also repainted the drill in its original colours (Hammerite Hammered Black and Silver) I added a smidgen of Royal blue to the black to get the match correct. It appears to have worked out quite well.

I'm having a flying lead to a remote control box for my inverter which will allow speed control, set speed selects, forwards, reverse, and a jog function at arms length. The machine had previously been sharing a wall mounted inverter which was remotely controlled from another machine (the T&C grinder! ) You can see my inverter in the first photo of the machine having the wire up tested.

Martin

Edited to get rid of the bufoonish smiley

Edited By Oily Rag on 30/10/2021 21:41:04

Now if you want to see a truly amazing machine there is / or was a 'Trip Hammer' displayed at the Birmingham Science Museum (now relocated to the 'Think Tank', Millenium Point, Curzon Street - not as I erroneously stated 'Centre Point' in my earlier post)

The trip hammer was a water wheel driven tree trunk with protrusions which hit another tree trunk at right angle to it, this caused the long slender trunk to rise sharply and contact a tree trunk set at the rear where upon it 'bounced' back and a cast hammer head then struck an anvil. The tool was made in 1756 and worked in Wednesbury in the Black Country until 1974. It was used to forge shovels and was so fast (250 beats a minute) that no machine bettered it until the 1970's! Not a nut or bolt was used in its construction - all was held together by wedges and keys.

Martin

Nice work Pete.

You'll have a fine machine when its finished. Is it 3 phase? are you going to run it off and inverter if so?

I think yours maybe an older machine than mine as the quill lock system is substantially different in the head casting with a much larger boss to accommodate the retaining outer bolt and the fine pitch adjustment inner bolt. I notice your machine plate is also quite different to mine (see attached photos) - what's your drills serial number (please)??

I earlier mis-counted the holes in the pulley lower bearing retainer plate - it has of course only 4 holes - 3 being equi spaced for the non back geared heads and an extra hole diametrically opposite one of the 3 holes for a 2 retainer system on the back geared heads. I have shown my mod of adding one more bolt to the accessible front hole.

I agree with you about the quality of these drills, everything about them oozes good design and craftsmanship. Unfortunately even the 'Fercolised' column on mine could not stop the ravages of standing outside for 5 years, but I was amazed at how good the column cleaned up where it was not fully exposed to the elements. As you also noted the quill is an excellent fit in the head and is absent from all 'slop'.

Have you noticed that many of the castings have a cast in part number that starts 'S 8 xxx' which shows its relationship to the Kerry Super 8 drilling machines. I note that the tilting table is also (at least on mine) not scribed with a '0' position. They obviously expected the operators to be able to re calibrate the table after moving it.

Apologies about the inference regarding your use of 'water pump pliers', I have not come across Knipex tools before but will certainly look out for them now.

Front view of the QDM head with the single 3/8th grub screw for the quill lock.

View showing the machine plate which is different style to Pete's machine. Note the shiny column bit just under the head then the 'dingy' section where the column was exposed to 5 years of the elements!

The extra lower bearing retainer plate bolt making use of one of the holes provided for the non back geared machines (QDM 500 and standard QDM 625)

My aluminium top cover was also lightly damaged (dinged at the back but not impacting on function in any way. I did find it 'rattly' but cured that with some thin self adhesive silicone rubber pads. I wonder if the strap fitting on your machine was to stop the skool kids raising the cover and fiddling with the belts / back gear? Seems that anything sold to edukashunal establishments have to be triple locked and plastered with warning stickers for safety of the 'Elfins!

Martin

Edited By Oily Rag on 30/10/2021 14:06:50

This may sound daft - but is it retained internally? Being a small gearbox may be that you can get inside of it and find if there is an internal nut on the other end of the disc. Just a passing thought!!

Martin

PS - And I thought it was a Lorry gearbox - doh!