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Member postings for Peter G. Shaw

Here is a list of all the postings Peter G. Shaw has made in our forums. Click on a thread name to jump to the thread.

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Thread: Chinese lathes
21/11/2010 20:01:50
Can I chuck in a complaint as well?
 
It would have been very handy for whoever put up the original photo to have explained a bit more about what was going on, and where the other photos were. It took me quite a bit of hunting to find a reference to Lathedog on which I could click to get to his profile etc, and then by accident I discovered the other photos.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
 
ps. Incidently, I have never had any problems caused by overlong URL's, but then I do use Firefox, anI noticesomeone else has made a similar comment.
 
Also, I quite agree that there is no need for insults and profanities. Tell people they are wrong by all means, and give them the proof, but please do it politely.
 
 
Thread: How to determine the pressure angle of gears
18/11/2010 21:18:39
Hey Mike,
 
That's excellent.
 
Although I haven't yet tried any gear wheel cutting, I have used CAD to draw circles and teeth using Ivan Law's ideas in his book, indeed his approximation was the only way I could draw some teeth - I forget which way round it is, but depending on the number of teeth, the pitch circle is either inside or outside one of the other circles, and this means that either the involute curve can be drawn, or it cannot. The reason why it cannot is because it cannot be extended backwards. Using Law's approximation gives success.
 
But your idea to determine  the pressure angle, assuming you are the same Mike, is excellent.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
Thread: Things they don't tell you in the books so I'm asking you lot
17/11/2010 19:40:03
Andrew,
 
Thanks for that, and yes, I do understand  about horses for courses.
 
Now, back to the comments about poor design, I have three examples of what I would consider to be well engineered designs.
 
One was a Bendix washing machine which ran for 17 years without any major problems until the alloy spider which supports the drum corroded until it became so weak that it collapsed. It's predecessor lasted 5 years before becoming uneconomic to repair. This machine I should add was hammered by our bringing up three children.
 
The second is a Mitsubishi TV bought in 1992. At 6 months old it had water from a vase poured into it, but swift application of a wet & dry vacuum cleaner followed by the use of a hot air gun and it lasted a further 17 years without a problem. Then it needed a capacitor change to restore full functionality. Just recently, a further two capacitors have failed and been replaced to restore full working. Total cost about £1 for all three capacitors. But, interestingly, all three capacitors were on a sub-board which required the removal of six or seven plugs, two screws and two clips to take it away to a place of comfortable working. Now that to me is good thinking.
 
The third is my H68V Black & Decker mains drill bought in 1986. It has been used for a lot of heavy work - masonry drilling, steel drilling, wood drilling etc, and it wasn't until last year that it suffered it's first failure - a short pin about 12mm long and 4mm wide. I looked at buying a replacement, but the prices for one of a similar specification - 400W+, electronic trigger controller, and a 2-speed mechanical gearbox -  were astronomical. Replacement pins not being available, I made one myself - and it now works again. Previous drills simply did not last.  
 
Peter G. Shaw
 
16/11/2010 15:52:48
Just like to add a couple of comments.
 
I am not a trained machinist, and as a consequence, I do not know what is acceptable finish. Fairly obviously, if you can feel ridges then it's poor, but just what is acceptable finish I do not know. I know that the finish required is dependant on the usage, eg for a bolt it probably doesn' need to be superfine, but for a plain bearing it will need to be somewhat better. But how much better? In my situation I can only experiment and hope for the best. I suspect that there a large number of newbies who are in the same situation, hence any pictures which show a desired, and for that matter undesired, finish will be helpful. For example, Harold Hall sometime ago did some experimenting with milling and published some photos showing the different finishes achieved on a piece of steel by milling on one direction and then in the reverse direction. This, to me, was most helpful, as were the comments about blunt cutters. As is the comment above about different suppliers supplying different versions of what was supposed to be the same steel. Pity the writer didn't feel free to say who supplied the best, although I can understand that there could be legalistic problems.
 
My second comment is about David Clark saying what he thought of the designer. Good for you David. It is high time that a few more designers were told upfront about the shortcomings of their designs, and here I have in mind a semi-circular glass cover that "Erin" has. This thing is heavy, and has a silly little square glass "knob" with sloping sides. The design is such that the base of the "knob" is wider that the tip, hence your fingers simply slide off unless you squeeze very hard to get a grip. Turn the "knob" around such that the slope was in the other direction, and it would be very much easier to use. This is an example of very poor design where the designer has been more concerned with looks than practicality. Of course, "Erin" doesn't see the problem. Mind you, I haven't seen it around for some time,so maybe she has quietly got rid of it!
 
There are, of course, a lot of other items that are simply poor design, but it isn't necessarily "looks" design. For example, I had two Maxis. In general, we found them to be very good practical cars - except that there a number of poorly engineered features under the skin of the car, eg, rubber butterfly joints that failed regularly, primary drive gear oil seal which failed regularly, etc. I'm sure we can all find examples of poor design both in the engineering and in looks/usage.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
Thread: Restoring a steam engine
10/11/2010 15:14:07
My suggestion would be to use any or all of penetrating fluid/diesel/heat from a blowlamp/plenty of welly from tools. Main problem is that using tools may well break something as it does look rather corroded.
 
I think this would be a long term project, perhaps applying diesel or penetrating fluid over a long period of time, weeks even, followed by heat from the blowlamp and gentle persuasion with tools.
 
Heat from the blowlamp does work, but it does tend to be rather spread out. A better bet might be to find someone, a friendly garage perhaps, who would be prepared to use an oxy-acetylene torch: these tend to be much more concentrated and hotter. Don't forget, that's how your garage man undoes rusted up parts on your car!
 
Possibly I would look at replacing some of the smaller parts.
 
Good luck, you'll need it.
 
Peter G. Shaw

Thread: Why is everything you buy such rubbish!!
09/11/2010 13:50:18
Two points:
 
1.
Unless I've missed it, nobody has reminded us that when the Japanese first started selling over here, they were rubbish. But then they realised, cleaned up their act, and we now know the result.
 
2.
British governments have never liked what they regard as the 'dirtier' aspects of what as a country we might be pretty good at, and accordingly have never looked after it.
 
Maybe then, what we need are politicians who have served a stint in (heavy) industry rather than the career politicians we now have.
 
On a more general basis, someone has said that the manufacturer's do not want us to repair, but as has been said, when the raw materials do eventually become prohibitavely expensive, then we may see a changing attitude. There is, though, another point - that of environmental efficiency which means that in an attempt to make equipment more efficient, then it is having to be electronically controlled which in turn means unrepairable specialist integrated circuits which in turn become obsolete and hence render the complete item unusable. Cars are an example, which is why maintaining a modern car properly is now beyond the reach of the average DIY home mechanic.
 
I also think that in this modern world of quick and cheap transport, it is inevitable that the work will go to those places with the lowest costs, ie wages. Only if these costs rise dramatically will it become economic again to manufacture in the same country as the items are used. In the short term, I feel it will be necessary to depress wages to such an extent that it becomes economic to retain the work here. But that, frankly, will cause one heck of a lot of possibly civil unrest.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw

Thread: Metric vs Imperial - Practical or Traditional?
05/11/2010 20:36:05
Chris,
 
The following from Tubal Cain's Model Engineer's Handbook, with suitable abreviations:
 
"Both the 'MKS' (note the order of letters) and the 'cgs' systems have been abandoned in favour of SI."
 
"The SI system is now universally adopted in science, and is almost so in engineering...."
 
"The 'preferred' prefixes are those which go up and down by 1000 at a time....  In length, therefore, the centimetre (1/100 metre) is not used in engineering practice and though it may be retained in domestic usage (eg in dress-making) it is best avoided even here."
 
Just for the record, most of the time I use metric - SI units. If using these units, I will NOT use anything other than mm, m or Km, and if people are incapable of understanding it, then that's their hard luck - they will have to learn, and learn quickly *. I do use imperial - if it happens to suit, eg when measuring a length, it may be that the imperial graduations line up whereas the metric ones don't.
 
* I do realise just how this sounds, but having been on the receiving end of a salesman who quite obviously did not understand what he was talking about, and read reports of the crap, to be blunt, that some salesmen talk in an attempt to sound knowledgable, I now no longer care what these people think. Generally speaking it's their loss when I walk out because they don't know what they are doing.
 
On the other hand, those salesmen who do use correct terminology are the ones who will make the sale, even if they don't understand it!
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
 
 
 
04/11/2010 19:18:51
Chris,
 
mm ARE preferred units, as are meters & kilometers. What is NOT preferred is cm, ie centimetres, but unfortuately certain misguided people insist on using it on the totally spurious grounds that it is more useful, or easier to understand, or something.
 
Which I cannot understand as people use grammes & kilogrammes without having to use centigrammes. In the electronics world people have long been used to working in factors of 1000 (including 0.001), so why on earth do people have to use a totally useless and  irrelevant centimetre. And increasing to possibility of an error to boot, ie by allowing the usage of different factor of 10.
 
I mean, if we are going to use additional factors of 10, then why not also use the decimetre, and really create confusion?
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
Thread: warco mill help needed
02/11/2010 09:30:41
Hi Ed,
 
I too have the Warco MiniMill, and one of the reasons why I bought it (not the main reason I hasten to add) was that with MT3 spindle, I could share things with the lathe.
 
I also use MT3 collets, and like you, have found that they do not reach down to the table - perhaps as well though! They are ok when using Warco's cheap vice. I have also knocked up a 100mm x 75mm square block by welding two pieces of angle iron together and then skimming two opposite surfaces. On this is bolted a piece of aluminium plate which has a lot of holes drilled and tapped in it and doesn't matter if it gets damaged. This does enable me to mount some smallish stuff for milling.
 
Incidently, I have bought all the metric MT3 collets I can find, but of course sods law has struck - one of my milling cutters is imperial!

When I get round to it (anyone got one? A Round Tuit, that is! ), I will be making a tilting vice as shown by Stan Bray some years ago in MEW.
 
I also have ideas for using bits of angle iron, suitable cleaned up and bolted together directly onto the table.

Hope this helps.
 
Peter G. Shaw
Thread: Metric vs Imperial - Practical or Traditional?
31/10/2010 20:47:06
I haven't entered these discussions before, but I have been following with interest. I have to say though, that I think that certainly for the UK, Chris Trice has hit the nail on the head with his last paragraph.
 
UK people who refuse to move to metric are simply bashing their heads against a brick wall. Metric is here for the vast majority of purposes, and we all do need to get a grip on it. It is true that Imperial may remain in certain limited instances for some time yet, eg travel distances, but I wouldn't want to bet on it remaining so.
 
Imperial will also remain in the repair field where it is impractical to use metric until such time as all non-metric equipment has finally bitten the dust. New build using imperial measures will eventually become, much as they are already, specialist builds done mainly as a hobby.
 
Finally, may I say that I grew up as an imperial child, although I never really got to grips with adding fractions together to create a third fraction. Don't get me wrong - I could do it, but not in my head. Then maybe 30 years ago, I specifically constructed a wall-cupboard using metric only. That was my conversion. Taking up model engineering, I specifically bought metric equipment. I do though,  have an imperial micrometer which was bought specifically for measuring shims on the tappets of my Maxi. Now though, metric has more or less become automatic 1st choice for me.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
 
 
Thread: Dial Gauge
28/10/2010 20:25:14
But why would you want to lock the dial? Surely there is enough friction to hold the dial in place without locking?
 
Peter G. Shaw
Thread: Clarke CMD10 Mill
28/10/2010 13:45:46
Presuming that you are talking chuck as in drill chuck, then you shouldn't be using a drill chuck for light milling. You should be using a collet of some sort along with a draw bar. Reason is, AIUI, is that milling produces a lot of sideways thrust (correct term?) which in turn causes the drill chuck taper to waggle it's way free. Drilling imposes a purely vertical thrust because the drill will be cutting on both lips identically (we hope!) and thus balancing out the sideways forces. Milling imposes out of balance forces as it mainly cuts on one tooth at a time.
 
Using a drawbar fastened collet ensures that the collet can't slacken off, hence the milling cutter stays where it is.
 
That's my take on it, rightly or wrongly.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
Thread: Dial Gauge
28/10/2010 13:38:57
Well, I always thought that the second knob was actually an additional foot - an elephant foot I believe - which can be used to replace the existing "pointy" foot. On both of the gauges I have had, these two parts were interchangeable, and indeed they were interchangeable between the gauges, so I now have 4 feet for my remaining gauge.
 
As far as the two plastic bits are concerned, again, my understanding was that they are to designate limits, eg tolerance limits.
 
No doubt someone will now put me right, but, I do find it convenient sometimes to use the broad, elephant, foot on round work which is perhaps slightly rough. The gauge then gives a smoother reading, whereas the pointy foot bounces about all over the place.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
Thread: Electronics in retro fit of CNC control on X3 Mill
27/10/2010 11:04:31
RS Components have indeed changed their procedures. Yes you still need to register, but you no longer need the trade references etc, and it can be done online - www.rswww.com - as can all the ordering and payment.
 
The trouble is that as ever, they are expensive, but their delivery is quite good, first class even. And they do have lots of stuff I certainly have difficulty finding elsewhere.

But a tale!
 
About 40 or so years ago I worked in a department which had access to the RS catalogue, and to order components we obtained an order code from our finance people, rang up RS, gave the order and the code, and lo and behold the items duly arrived. The invoice was usually sent to us a few days later, and we passed it on to the finance people for payment.
We also used to regularly receive visits from their salesman, so one day, wanting some stuff,  I asked him how I could get it. His reply was to send a cheque with a written order and use our works address.  Fair enough, this worked.
So one day I tried a variation. Wanting some tools for myself, I made up an unofficial code, my home 'phone number actually, placed the order, the tools arrived and I sat back waiting for the invoice, my intention being to send off a personal cheque. Fortunately, I had primed my colleagues about what I was doing, because one of them received an anguished cry from finance saying that they had received this invoice from RS complete with a code that they did not recognise. My colleague quickly offered to sort it out for them if they would send him the invoice. The invoice arrived and I duly paid.
I still have, and regularly use those tools.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
 
Thread: Initial work quality
25/10/2010 13:27:45
As a non-mechanical engineer (if you see what I mean), I'm in this hobby to learn how to use the tools, and along the way increase my tooling by where ever possible making small tools and adaptors.
 
So, what have I learned? Well, possibly it could be summed up by the fact that I am currently, temperature permitting, overhauling my lathe, something I wouldn't have dared to do even a few years ago. In this I have been helped by reading about what other people have done - Dave Fenner changing bearings, David White and all his X1 etc improvements. Etc, etc. I'm also hoping to improve my MiniMill along White's ideas.
 
I've also learned what does work, and possibly more importantly, what doesn't work, eg carbide tipped tools, milling in the lathe holding a cutter in the chuck (seems much better using direct collets in the headstock), and so on.
 
I'm also learning about my own abilities, about how to achieve precision, not that I've yet dared to do anything requiring precision, but that will come.
 
In short, I'm learning, and if along the way I mangle something, break something, the end result isn't right, or it is right but not pretty, so what, I'm still learning. And experimenting.
 
And that's what it's all about. Afterall, it's no error that the senior body's title is "Society of Model and Experimental Engineers".
 
Oh, and by the way, yes, there are a lot of expert people frequenting this board. My thanks to those who have in one way or another given assistance, assurance or simply ideas, something I try to reciprocate within the limits of my own experience.

Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
Thread: Are steam engines better now in preservation than they were in ordinary service
23/10/2010 09:25:46
The correct answer to my grandson's question as to why the ferry took one hour less on the return journey is actually a combination of  Norway being 1 hour in front of us and the actual ferry timings.

But I couldn't resist saying something outrageous!

And yes, my grandson's now know to be suspicious of anything I say which sounds slightly dubious.
 
Isn't it a pity that children grow up!

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

Edited By Peter G. Shaw on 23/10/2010 09:28:48

22/10/2010 14:57:36
Surely in the UK and elsewhere the southbound trains are going downhill while the northbound trains are going uphill?
 
This reminds of a few years ago when my youngest grandson asked why the ferry from England to Norway took 1 hour less returning, than it did going. My answer was that if he looked at the map, he would see that it was downhill from Norway, hence it was faster. He didn't know whether to believe me or not - I think he realised that there was something not quite right, but didn't know what! 
 
Rotten to my grandchildren I am!
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
 
 
Thread: Collet Chuck
21/10/2010 16:10:32
Boldminer,
 
After looking at the Private Message system, I cannot see easily how to copy 2 A4 sheets and hope to make it legible. May I then suggest that we correspond directly by email. My email address is [email protected]. Once we have made connection (!), I can then scan and email these sheets direct to you.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
21/10/2010 16:06:21
Hi Boldminer,
 
Your device looks very similar to that which was originaly supplied wih the Warco 220 lathe. As it happens I have copies of some correspondence - not from me, I hasten to add - between a purchaser and Warco back in 1994. At that time the purchaser was having a lot of difficulty obtaining correct collets from Warco (does that ring a bell?) and had made some investigations himself. I will attempt to summarise what he said.
 
The collet seems to be DIN 6343 144E.Din 6343 143E is shorter but with a ring on top also works.
 
The gentleman concerned also sent me some data sheets with, from the look of it, certain collets marked. I will attempt to copy them (they are rather poor) and send them to you by Private Message. If they are any good, then you'll let us (plural as in everyone) know.
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
 
Thread: Are steam engines better now in preservation than they were in ordinary service
20/10/2010 11:03:33
Now I'm no steam buff, but it is obvious that the preserved steam locos are going to be generally in better condition that they were 50 years ago. Afterall, they now represent  a large financial asset which may well have had many man-hours spent on it to get it running again. Not that British Rail didn't have financial assets 'cos they did, but in the closing days of steam, there would be no incentive to really look after them.
 
But as John Olsen says, a lot of the 60's goods trains were indeed the unbraked loose coupled trains, and it's only really with the advent of braked stock and the ultra powerful diesel-electrics that line speeds could be increased. Mind you, there is rather more skill involved, so I understand, in getting a loose coupled train moving (and stopping) than there is in driving a fully braked close coupled train attached to a 4000HP diesel-electric.
 
As regards the 9F's, if they were used on loose coupled freight, then they are still going to be limited to the same slowspeed restrictions as any other loco. But, I have read that when used on passenger duties, they were indeed capable of a fair turn of speed.
 
But what about banking/double heading etc. There is an important point here. If a freight train was limited to slow speed due to being loose coupled and unbraked, then the train would not be able to build up any momentum, therefore when faced with a steep bank, the loco would need assistance to get up it, whereas today's trains, travelling at much higher speeds, do indeed have the benefit of momentum. How much, I don't know, but it must help.
 
As an aside, I have at various times played with the Microsoft Train Simulator which does have all the various parameters built in. Just for fun one day, I deliberately stalled a Class31 hauled  freight train on a bank. It would not restart. And yet, when given even a slow run at the bottom could climb the bank with ease. Momentum? Or something else?
 
Final comment. Is it fair to compare a mainline steam express loco with perhaps 400ton behind with a goods loco with perhaps (guessing) double that amount behind?
 
Regards,
 
Peter G. Shaw
 
 
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