Member postings for Jelly

Latex Rubber has been replaced with Ethylene–Propylene Rubber and Neoprene Rubber in modern specifications (Type HO7RN-F for instance).

So current "rubber" cables demonstrate good resistance to oils fats and greases, and most aliphatic hydrocarbon solvents...

But are still quite susceptible to damage by slightly polar solvents (aromatics, ketones, chlorinated solvents), which do tend to be rather aggressive towards just about any kind of elastomeric polymer in fairness.

The really important bit for people to know in all of this is that the braid is not sufficiently sized to act as the CPC (protective earth) and in addition to earthing the braid, a dedicated earth conductor must be provided in the cable itself.

I have seen too many installs where it's been assumed that you can use the braid of SY in the same way as you can the armour in SWA.

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In any case the use of SY (or other non-standard cables) is to be discouraged unless there's a good reason to do so (and in doing so deviate from BS7671), as documented by the designer of the installation.

This document from Eland Cables explains the situation with respect to BS EN 50525-2-11 (which is a standard for how one makes cables generally, not a standard specifying the design of a particular type of cable) not translating into 18th edition compliance without further consideration.

Edited By Jelly on 18/09/2022 23:49:33

You can still get Epoxy Resin Strippers, not sure if that particular one (Chemset AP 1105) is the one you used, but it seems like it does the same job.

Looking up an SDS it's just 10% Methanol and 90% Dichloromethane, not particularly exotic but definitely the kind of thing which companies have been discouraged from selling to "Joe Public" over time.

Aye, true enough.

My big oxford arc welder costs about £2.70/hr to run (at the heavy end of the spectrum with 4mm Rutile or 3.2mm Low Hydrogen rods) and is probably the most expensive machine in the workshop to run (despite being by far the simplest), followed closely by the MIG welder.

Had to upgrade the supply to the workshop to support them as well, with it's own dedicated 50A supply spurred off directly after the meter.

Spurred on by comments in another thread about something smaller than one of my own machines being too big to move, I'm curious to know what other members think is the upper limit of what they will/can put into their workshop and why?

For my sins I've drawn the line at 1.5 tonnes weight, because that's what I can practically move for myself with a 3500kg MAM van and a hired forklift or gantry and tifor.

Access to the workshop is down a narrow private road with a tight bend and no larger vehicles can pass, so anything heavier would need to be lifted in (and out again) over the fence from a neighbouring cul-de-sac, at which point it just starts getting silly (it is feasible though and not obscenely expensive).

When I next move it is my full intention to ensure I have the space and access to fit bigger equipment in, to match some of my longer term ambitions.

Edited By Jelly on 16/09/2022 18:33:11

It's definitely a garage or concrete-floored dedicated workshop sized machine tool, I wouldn't fancy my chances trying to move it over even a well designed suspended floor.

That said, I can't agree the L6 is too big or heavy to transport, I can be pretty confident saying that because it's a little smaller than and half the weight of my TOS S32 which I moved myself.

It's just a matter of being suitably prepared for the undertaking, so one would reasonable expect a significant amount of disruption on the day of collection, with the buyer being on site for several hours, along with bringing assistance and significant amounts of equipment, unless they have paid a professional transport service to collect it with a HIAB vehicle which being a full sized commercial vehicle poses its own space related challenges.

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For Jeremy's benefit:

If someone is comes to move this lathe themselves you should reasonably expect them to be bringing:

• A Transit sized van or a large car/4x4/pickup and trailer.
• A lifting gantry or engine crane.
• Lifting slings or chains and shackles
• Machine Skates or many stout metal rollers (lengths of scaffold pole are a common choice).
• A pry bar and a jack.
• lots of wooden blocks to assist with stabilising/supporting whilst they're lifting.

They will need to use the jack to get the rollers or skates under the lathe (possibly using the pry bar to get the jack under there first), then manouvre it to the loading area using pushing, pulling and prying, even relatively small obstacles (minor bumps, rough patches on concrete) will add time to this, and traversing a small curb could easily add 45mins to an hour. If they're going up or down even a small slope they will need to anchor to something stout in order to lower or raise the load under control using a strap, rope or winch.

They will then need enough space to get their lifting equipment around the lathe, whilst still being able to reverse the vehicle or trailer they have brought into position once they do lift it. This space needs to be flat ground, and ideally some kind of hard even surface.

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If the buyer has arranged a transport firm:

The firm they will most likely bring a lorry mounted crane (possibly a demountable forklift in some cases), you should factor on this being on the large size for a non-articulated lorry with a turning circle of up to 41 feet (12.5m to be precise).

If the area it's coming from is tight for space and you want to minimise disruption ask the buyer to have the transport company ring you in advance so that you can plan the parking arrangement and any space which needs to be cleared in advance, and ensure that they know exactly where it's coming from and to bring additional manpower or equipment if neccessary.

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Some specialist transport firms who are set up for doing this kind of thing specifically do use tilting trailers with winches or transit-sized 5 or 7 tonne vans with small cranes mounted on them instead of larger vehicles, but they're not nearly as common as the more industrial type of operator.

If everything I've described previously was a bit off-putting I can give you the details of at least one possibly two such firms, so you can get a quote for transport controlled by you, then offer the lathe for sale delivered (which should attract a price premium above and beyond the cost of transport really).

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Hopefully all this is useful information to know, and will help make a potentially quite stressful experience which itself is part of a bigger more stressful life-event for your family that little bit less challenging.

Being fore-warned is fore-armed and all that!

Fair value on the open market is difficult for machines like this, a lot comes down condition, accessories and to how much effort the buyer will need to put into moving it.

However the Harrison L series lathes are pretty desirable because they're in the class of machines which are proper industrial tools, but small (or more specifically light) enough for a hobbyist to be able to have at home without serious upheaval; I wouldn't expect you to have too much trouble selling it.

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I would expect it to fetch between £800 - £2500 to a private seller depending on condition and accessories, assuming that it's easily available to load onto transport (good access for a Trailer or Small Hiab Vehicle), being in a position to assist with loading (if a neighbour or family friend has lifting equipment they can loan or come along with) will help getting the maximum value possible.

Make an effort to catalogue all the things that go with the lathe, photograph them, and capture that in the advertisement, cleaning everything (say 30-40 minutes to sweep up and swarf, wipe dust or oily gunk off etc) and tidy the area around the lathe before photographing it, will also increase your ability to get a good price.

I would suggest that listing it as a "buy it now" item on eBay and slowly reducing the price if it doesn't sell within a month or so is a good option to recover maximum value if you have the time. If it continues to not sell or you need to speed things up, you can then move to an auction easily.

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All that said, you might end up dropping as low as £400-£500 if access is awkward, and the deal is that the buyer has to remove it from the workshop and move it a substantial distance to a location where they can load it.

If you know you're in that position, it may be easier to accept that you won't realise the full market value to begin with and sell to a dealer who is well prepared to deal with this aspect, rather than have several iterations of "Failed" sales where you go to a lot of effort and aggravation only for the whole thing to fall through.

You need to make the call as to whether you want to realise the maximum value for your uncle, or just have a painless removal process.

In any case if access is awkward, you will do yourself a massive favour by documenting where the lathe is, and the route it needs to move along to where it can be loaded, and either sharing this with interested parties, or if selling by auction, putting it in the listing clearly.

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Regards weighing it in, Ferrous Scrap prices are currently showing £180-£200 for "Grade 9-10 Cast" and £155-£185 for "Grade 5 Light Iron", with the L6 weighing around 780kg you'd realise between £128 - £156 if you weighed the lathe in, and a scrap merchant who had to collect it and move it further than they can immediately reach with a hiab truck, may only offer to take it away for free to reflect their costs.

You would almost certainly make a better return selling to a machinery dealer than to a scrappy (who if they have any sense is going to have a dealer they run things like this by when the receive them in).

I need to organise the collets and inserts, which is a task all of it's own as the seller's storage approach left something to be desired...

They did at least cushion them with shredded newspaper for shipping but i took that out ASAP as paper would just attract and retain moisture.

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Based on just a visual inspection and count, it would appear that I have a full complement of metric and imperial sizes (including the less common 16th and 32nd's intermediate sizes and metric equivalents), plus duplicates; but as everything is unmarked, I will need to sit down the the bore-mic and measure to separate them out...

I could have 4 sets of the standard 5 imperial or metric collets for all I know right now, something I'm placing firmly in the "nice problem to have" category.

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There aren't actually any (appropriately sized) threaded shank cutters in the workshop at the moment (plenty in 1" - 1.25" shanks though) having donated them to a friend who was starting out, because I had moved over to using solid carbide endmills at the time.

However, the Harrison I just acquired doesn't have the speed required to run smaller diameter non-insertable carbide endmills, so I'll need to get some more HSS ones if I want to be able to do any end-milling operations in the Horizontal Spindle; but I'm sure Ericks, Cromwell or the Tooling Stores on Attercliffe Road will be able to sort me out with them as required.

Success!

Just popped out to the workshop to put my welding PPE away (was out yesterday evening/night doing some welding elsewhere) and thought I'd have another crack since I was out there.

Filled it up with EZ-Start whilst I sorted out my putting away, then as that had drained/evaporated did the same with penetrating oil for a few minutes whilst listening to R4.

Then used a length of brass rod as a drift to push the central pin out (it's a perfect light transition fit by feel), which revealed a lip formed by the bottom of the sleeve overhanging the relief for aligning the pin.

Using an allen key as a stiffer alternative to a pick tool i was able to get enough purchase to get the collet sliding slightly, making space to put one jaw of an extra-long nose needle-nose pliers in and hook the serrations on the edge of the collet, giving me a good handle to pull firmly, and out it came just like that.

From what I can tell the sleeve is extremely close fitting to the bore and just a tiny buildup of crud in the bore results in it binding tightly.

It wouldn't go back in initially, but little more than wiping my fingertip round the bore was enough to remove the detritus and restore it to a perfect sliding fit (I can't get over how well made and well preserved this thing is, a number of the ground collet and insert surfaces will wring together from their smoothness).

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 16/09/2022 09:45:45:

I will bear that in mind, my Heath-Robinson solution of using EZ-Start was effective enough, but extremely cold.

It's only about 13C in there today anyway, but allowing a vast quantity of Ether to evaporate on a steel part brought it's temperature down low enough that it was uncomfortable to hold with bear skin when adding the penetrating oil; possibly that thermal cycling actually helped make room for the oil to get in.

Aha!

The second sleeve mentioned in that patent and shown in section, appears as if it is just part of the bore in the chuck I picked up; that explains why the design didn't make any sense perfectly.

It's obviously an extremely close fit, and has been locked in place by oxidised oil or similar, how to get it out on the other hand may be a challenge.

I've obtained what appeared to be a complete outfit of an Autolock type Chuck, full set of collets and full set of threaded inserts all in the original box. It was something of an impulse buy whilst looking for something else entirely...

However I'm totally unable to figure out how it operates, it looks nothing like the more common "Titanic II" or Clarkson systems, and I have a sneaking suspicion that what I have is a very complete set of the correct collets but absent some other component(s)

My understanding of how these style of chucks work is that

1. the threaded inserts (or collets with an internal thread) go into the chuck first and are prevented from rotating by some internal feature of the chuck body.
2. The collets go in next and butt up to the threaded insert.
3. The external nut on the chuck is closed to hold the collet and insert in.
4. When a threaded endmill of the appropriate size is screwed in, once it bottoms out on a stop in the chuck body any further rotation is driving the threaded insert down against the external nut, causing the collet to close.

However:

• The collets are unthreaded with a smaller diameter than the threaded inserts, and sit so deep into the chuck that the can't touch the external nut and engage their taper, whilst nothing in the chuck body provides an anti-rotation feature. Also the taper is the wrong way up to be effectively closed by the action of a threaded endmill.

• The threaded inserts are a perfect fit on top of the collets, and in the chuck, but that setup would prevent the threaded endmill from actually engaging in the collet at all.

[For further descriptive photographs click here]

I'm totally stumped, if anyone had used one of these before and can give me a steer on if the parts are correct (and if they are, how I use them effectively) it would be most appreciated.

Edited By Jelly on 16/09/2022 02:18:10

I would seriously consider a Multi-Fix style QCTP in your position.

I always thought they were a bit of a gimmick (and would never have bought one for that reason) until I just so happened to buy a lathe which was already fitted with one...

I wouldn't go back to a Dixon/Dickson or Aloris style QCTP now, the Multi-Fix system is more convenient, more rigid, more repeatable, and more flexible; the only downside is not being able to machine your own holders easily.

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Chronos sell reasonable facsimiles of the Size A and Size E versions (Multi-Fix sizes are complicated) of the toolpost with holders for a very good price.

Pewe-Tools (one of several vendors of Multi-Fix style systems) has a handy sizing guide.

This touches on two areas of professional expertise for me, so I apologise if this ends up being more detailed than you need.

You can ship just about anything in the UK or EU, it's just a case of properly declaring it and using an appropriate courier if it's classed as being "Dangerous Goods"; TNT, FedEx and UPS all offer DG as an option but you pay about £10 more per item and have to fill in an additional form.

Exactly what classes as DG is defined by the Agreement on the Transport of Dangerous Goods by Road (ADR) which is comprehensive in an impenetrably detailed sort of way.

Carbon Tetrachloride is UN 1846, Class 6.1 (Toxic), Packing Group II (Medium Risk) - see Pg 380 of Volume 1 linked.

Quantities under 100ml are exempted and not considered Dangerous Goods, Quantities under 333KG can be transported commercially under a separate exemption set out in paragraph 1.1.3.6 (Sub Paragraph 1.1.3.6.3 identifies the quantity) subject to appropriate packaging and paperwork being used.

If you personally transport it in your capacity as a private individual Paragraph 1.1.3.1 clause a) exempts you from the carriage regulations entirely.

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Regards disposal the advice to allow it to evaporate to atmosphere is woefully outdated, and doing so deliberately for the purposes of disposal would constitute a criminal offence under the Waste (England and Wales) Regulations 2011.

Release to the environment is also pretty terrible for said environment (specifically groundwater) even in comparatively small quantities, this is why Carbon Tet and other chlorinated degreasers/dry cleaning agents have been progressively phased out under REACH and latterly UK-REACH.

That said, those self-same waste regulations impose a legal duty on your local council to provide a service for the disposal of Hazardous Waste from Householders. So you should be able to discharge the extinguisher into a suitable (Polyethylene or Glass) container, then take it to a HWRC (CA site / Council Tip), arrange to take it to a periodic Amnesty Event, or have it collected from your house (the service varies depending on your council)...

I should emphasize, DO NOT take the whole extinguisher to the Tip, discharge the contents into a suitable container first and take that (ideally clearly labeled with the contents to assist the poor soul who periodically gets sent to catalogue and collect it all) unless you want to end up losing your extinguisher.

Rob and I have now struck a deal over his unloved attachment above, which will still require some adjustments to work effectively on the Harrison, but saves a great deal of work compared to making the unit from scratch.

I know that eBay seller, has been a nice bloke whenever I've dealt with him, his main business is supplying/maintaining machine tools for schools and colleges.

That said, there's no way that mill is worth just shy of a grand!

On the second hand market you could (with patience) get a decent full sized mill for that money, or as other posters have said on the new market you could have a far eastern mill of a similar size to that EMCO.

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If you do fancy that particular mill (it wouldn't be for me, but we all have different requirements) and it re-appears on eBay I would suggest contacting the seller and asking if he's open to negotiation on the price as you've seen it's not moving.

The question really is "How much would that be worth to me personally?" once you know that, you know what to offer and what your walking away point is.

He may have locked himself into a high price by giving a good price to the school he bought it from, but otherwise I would think he'd be open to negotiation, and certainly wouldn't be offended by it.

Just for clarity, any size of holder will be compatible with Metric, UNC or Whit inserts of the matching size (and handedness).

I initially read your post and went off foaming at the mouth: "That's not right, 55°! 60°! Thread Forms!, Someone is wrong on the internet! Arrrrrrgh!"...

Then stopped re-read and went "Oh actually i just interpreted that as saying something different to how it was intended, false alarm!"

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FWIW I also find Cutwel good for insert holders, although have found APT (Associated Production Tooling) to be slightly cheaper and just as good on service.

Cutwel do stock smaller sizes of full form inserts through, APT only really carry ER/NR16 and up, which is fine for external threading, but a pain if you want inserts for internal threading of small bores.

I would be surprised (but not shocked) if "just" rusting together would hold up to everything Matthew has tried, he's imposed some fairly sharp shock loads, vibration and a lot of force, iron oxide doesn't usually have the mechanical strength to deal with all of those sequentially, but nevertheless it does seem to be getting down to very drastic options at this point.

I would personally be inclined to take the track Nicolas suggested and use gentle heat on the spindle first to try to release it before progressing to boring the toolholder out, it is possible (though hard to understand why) someone chose to Loctite the taper in after all.

In any case I think disassembly of the quill is unfortunately the logical progression whatever option is pursued at this point, even if heating worked without disassembly you'd still need to strip and re-grease everything after that.

One potentially silly question I have for Matthew as OP is "Would it really be a problem if you just treated the mill as having an ER32 spindle, and bought exclusively straight shank tooling to go in collets?"...

If he already owns a bunch of MT tooling, or wants to run large drills in the mill frequently, I can see the problem... But if not, the solution may be to just redefine the constraints so that the new problem is "Where can I get more esoteric items of straight shank tooling" (like boring heads, facemill holders etc.) which is far easier to solve.

I was struggling to picture how the riser block would allow me to use it in horizontal mode, but a quick search revealed this:

(Future readers with the same problem I have, click the image to link to the original build thread for that design).

Which makes everything make sense, seen as it's clearly intended to function as the overarm as well as raising the vertical head up... Very nifty indeed!

That's another option, although at that point the price (at least from a search today) is such that it would probably be as well buying a second hand Bridgeport Head, and fabricating a mount for it which fits onto the overarm dovetails.

Both approaches also result in using a lot more storage space (something which is at a bit of a premium for me), and being even heavier/more ungainly to lift into position (I have been rather more cautious about lifting after I gave myself Sciatica in my mid 20's by thinking I was some kind of superman, thankfully it was fully cured by a course of muscle relaxants and physiotherapy on that occasion, but if I was to allow a "next time" I may not be so lucky).

It's pretty likely that I'll want to use the full envelope of the machine...

There's plenty of parts where using it as you describe would actually be better than using a vertical head (although would require fabricating a really rigid angle plate for any vice held work) because it gives a 15" X & 11" Y envelope, at the expense of only 6.5" Z travel and reduced "daylight" between the part and the spindle.

But equally there's work where the increased "daylight" of a vertical head (on the basis that I offset the head upward vertically, probably more than the original design so that the bottom of my normal collet chucks would end up level with the top of the horizontal spindle) would be more important, specifically I own quite a lot of insertable milling tooling which has comparatively long shanks, which I'd like to be able to use on this mill, but also don't want to go cutting down to make it fit.

In any case my plan is to (as far as possible) use the approach you're suggesting to make the parts of the vertical head which require milling, as a bit of a challenge.