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Alan Worland	10/02/2012 22:30:08
247 forum posts 21 photos	I am looking for a vertical mill, and being of 'the older generation' I work in imperial units - my lathes imperial The majority of mills in the market seem to be metric - did I ought to ignore this and just go for the one that suits my general requirements and fit DRO's to the machine and just ignore the dials? Seems like a good working solution to the problem of not finding so many imperial units! Alan
Ketan Swali	10/02/2012 22:53:45
1481 forum posts 149 photos	Alan, In my opinion, if you are doing this for a hobby, if you think in imperial, and if you intend to use it for a good number of years, buy an imperial machine. You are doing this for your pleasure, not for pain, or business. There are plenty of imperial machines out there. You just need to look around for what meets your needs. in your case, only consider a metric machine if you really like the features of that machine which are not available in any other imperial models you have seen. Ketan.
Gone Away	10/02/2012 23:03:36
829 forum posts 1 photos	If you can afford to, I'd go for the DRO in any case. I haven't come across anyone who, having got one, hasn't wondered how they ever managed without. Then you can work in either units. Flip back and forth if you want.
Ketan Swali	10/02/2012 23:46:06
1481 forum posts 149 photos	I agree. What Sid says also makes sense.
Ady1	10/02/2012 23:54:17
6137 forum posts 893 photos	No one who ever gets DRO ever regrets buying it. A vernier on your lathe cross slide for a tenner eliminates backlash issues and has excellent repeatability...DRO is a no-brainer IMO
David Haynes	11/02/2012 11:08:19
168 forum posts 26 photos	I have an imperial lathe and my current and future projects are imperial. When I recently ordered a new milling machine, I could have the model I wanted in metric immediately and it was suggested I could just put the 3 DROs on so imperial use would not be a problem. I am not in an urgent need for the machine but did not want to have to spend more on DRO and also have to fit it; the micrometer dials on this machine have a good reputation and as I am used to those on a 50 year old lathe, backlash and all, the new none DRO machine did not seem an issue. Unless already fitted, DRO is an 'add on later' as needs dictate.
Roderick Jenkins	11/02/2012 11:20:46
2376 forum posts 800 photos	Alan, I don't think it makes any difference at all whether your machine is metric or imperial. You'll be working in either decimal inches (thous) or decimal metres (mm). Just keep a calculator handy and convert from one to the other at will. I think we just have to get used to working in both systems. Older plans tend to be drawn in fractions so these have to be converted to decimal inches anyway before we can start cutting using a mill. I have a DRO system on my mill and it is very useful but that is mostly because the dials on my mill are a little difficult to keep track of in 3 dimensions. I have felt no need to put a DRO on the imperial lathe to work to metric dimensions, just a calculator stuck to the belt cover. I've been using metric drills for 25 years and have digital calipers and micrometers that will measure in either units so, apart from my collection of imperial reamers, I consider myself to be fully bi-lingual. Two more points come to mind, one for each side. Dial divisions in thou are easier to read than those in 0.02mm. As time goes on a metric mill will probably have a higher 2nd hand value than an imperial one. Good luck in your search, Rod
Another JohnS	11/02/2012 14:32:33
842 forum posts 56 photos	Alan; (reverse metric/imperial shown below, for you) - My model engineering was in inches, until I moved to The Netherlands for a few years. Metrification was at first painful (picture: standing in front of my new-to-me lathe, throwing hands up, yelling "what the h--ll is this mm stuff!!!"). - I'm now 100% metric. My 2 old imperial machines: -- Centec 2B mill - DRO on X and Y axes; calculator for Z axis movement. (or, 1mm = 40 thou is pretty close for lots of stuff) - Kerry lathe - 2 dial indicators magnetically stuck on cross slide and top slide; removable if desired. Works very well, with the exception that magnets catch swarf (easily cleaned off, to tell you the truth) I think DROs are fantastic. Even if I got a new metric lathe/mill; the first thing I'd do is fit a DRO to it. (yes, looking at fitting magnetic scales to the Kerry lathe) I think people sweat the metric/imperial stuff too much. For me, metric is easier, for others, inches. All they are is measurements; the real challenge is to make things, not to worry about units. Another JohnS.
mgnbuk	11/02/2012 15:24:33
1394 forum posts 103 photos	I think people sweat the metric/imperial stuff too much. For me, metric is easier, for others, inches. All they are is measurements; the real challenge is to make things, not to worry about units. Agreed. Just missed metrification at school - I did all Imperial, my 18 month younger brother was all Metric. Apprentice training & early work experience was mainly Imperial - later work was mainly Metric. Currently I work almost exclusively Metric at home or work, using a mixture of Metric and Imperial machines (in the case of my Taiwanese FB2 clone assembled from two different sources - both on the same machine !). My measuring stuff is also a mixture of the two units, though I find Imperial mics easier to read than Metric (I find I can "loose" half a millimetre too easily on the Metric mics). Any Imperial dimensioned jobs that come in to work are all re-dimensioned Metric - although all the CNC machines can be set & programmed Imperial, fewer mistakes are made if everything is made in the same units. Half of the operators are Polish/ Slovakian - Imperial confuses the heck out of them ! The "40 thou to a millimetre" approximation works well to get close & a Poundshop large digit calculator stuck to the cupboard over the Super7 does near-instant accurate conversions as required. Somewhat bizarrely, I tend to think in millimeters down to 1mm, but find it easier to "visualise" sub-millimetre increments in "thou" ! Regards, Nigel B.
Alan Worland	11/02/2012 20:58:23
247 forum posts 21 photos	Thanks all, perhaps I was a bit biased having the imperial units on the lathe but can understand that it shouldn't really be the be all and end all of my decision! I wonder if we will see the day when machines just have 'handles' with the operator selecting the units as required - sounds quite a good idea! Alan
Andrew Johnston	11/02/2012 23:11:57
7061 forum posts 719 photos	Posted by Alan Worland on 11/02/2012 20:58:23: I wonder if we will see the day when machines just have 'handles' with the operator selecting the units as required - sounds quite a good idea! Alan We already do; it's known as CNC. Regards, Andrew
Gone Away	12/02/2012 01:20:03
829 forum posts 1 photos	Posted by Alan Worland on 11/02/2012 20:58:23: I wonder if we will see the day when machines just have 'handles' with the operator selecting the units as required - sounds quite a good idea! I already have that. I just turn the handles and press a button on the DRO to select the units
Ketan Swali	12/02/2012 10:58:00
1481 forum posts 149 photos	Wow, Its good to read how times have changed. Ten years ago, it was a hard job suggesting a metric machine to an imperial user. It is true that the DRO has made life easier, but I did not appreciate that it would be accepted so easily. I hope it will make my job easier . Ketan at ARC.
mgnbuk	12/02/2012 12:28:07
1394 forum posts 103 photos	Its good to read how times have changed. Sadly, nature has a way of moving things along ! In another 10 years time, I suspect that the Imperial stalwarts will be in the minority (on this side of the Altantic, anyway) as those taking up home workshop activities will have had little or no exposure to Imperial measurements in education or employment.
Another JohnS	12/02/2012 13:55:43
842 forum posts 56 photos	Posted by Nigel Barraclough on 12/02/2012 12:28:07: Its good to read how times have changed. Sadly, nature has a way of moving things along ! In another 10 years time, I suspect that the Imperial stalwarts will be in the minority (on this side of the Altantic, anyway) as those taking up home workshop activities will have had little or no exposure to Imperial measurements in education or employment. Just a point of reference; Anyone in their early 50s or younger educated in Canada was educated in metric. (or, should have been, from what I understand). Inches do not exist in schools; a bit of a problem because of the large influence the USA has on our society. On re-subscribing to ME just over a year ago, I was absolutely astounded by the change in units to mm by and large. Another JohnS Canada.
Roderick Jenkins	12/02/2012 15:31:10
2376 forum posts 800 photos	As someone whose education in the UK spanned the 60s and early 70s, I learnt distances in miles and yards and feet and inches. My scientific education was always in metric although it changed from CGS (centimetre, gram, second) to MKS or SI (metre, kilogram, second). When I took up model engineering from a scientific background 32nds, 64ths and thous were completely new to me but it was hardly a brain strain to able to think in thousandths of a millimetre or thousandths of an inch. To my mind it's no big deal. More to the point is the equipment one has. As I alluded to earlier, I have a complete collection of imperial reamers in 64ths but my collection of metric ones is slowly increasing as I need them. My lathe is imperial but it is very easy to divide a metric measurement by 25.4 to convert to imperial. The lathe has a gearbox but I have a metric conversion set. Screw threads are a complete mess with no one system (European, British or American) fulfilling all the requirement. Threading gear has been purchased as required. While the USA remains staunchly imperial (!) model engineering projects will exist in both metric and imperial forms. The majority of existing designs are imperial and although I believe that market forces will eventually compel US industry to convert to metric it will not happen any time soon. If you are clever enough to operate a lathe then I suggest that conversion from one to the other is hardly going to tax you. In the UK and the English speaking commonwealth we are the interface between the two systems. I suggest that we learn to be competent in either, as I am sure most of us are. I'll get down off my soapbox now. cheers, Rod
Gone Away	12/02/2012 17:10:58
829 forum posts 1 photos	Posted by John Alexander Stewart on 12/02/2012 13:55:43: Just a point of reference; Anyone in their early 50s or younger educated in Canada was educated in metric. (or, should have been, from what I understand). Inches do not exist in schools; a bit of a problem because of the large influence the USA has on our society. In that case, they get a rude awakening if they go into engineering industries when they leave/graduate. Canada is officially metric and as far as every day stuff like groceries, gasoline, road distances etc. that's true. But the Trudeau government of the 70's, that brought in the metric system, never succeeded in forcing it down the throats of the manufacturing industries because of Canada's heavy reliance on the US for trade - which is still true. Most manufacturing in Canada is still predominately in Imperial units. Most tooling, cutters, hardware etc are still much more plentiful in inches and while available in mm, the range is more limited (take a look at the KBC catalog). Although machine shops will work in metric if required they often do it on the basis of converting to inches (with it's attendant risks). At the same time, the US is not as "100% Imperial" as might be imagined. There is some metric penetration there also, perhaps on a par with or perhaps a little less than Canada (in manufacturing that is). Edited By Sid Herbage on 12/02/2012 17:18:13
Another JohnS	12/02/2012 18:19:25
842 forum posts 56 photos	Posted by Sid Herbage on 12/02/2012 17:10:58: In that case, they get a rude awakening if they go into engineering industries .. Most manufacturing in Canada is still predominately in Imperial units. Most tooling, cutters, hardware etc are still much more plentiful in inches and while available in mm, the range is more limited (take a look at the KBC catalog). Sid; (apologies to all - I find this change to metric process fascinating) No issues with this - my youngest's boyfriend is a welder (welding building frames); when last asked, "about half" of the plans are metric, the rest inch. He has no problem working in inches; was not confident of how many inches in a yard, though! KBC, who gets almost all of my orders, is an american company. (check their web site). Yes, their metric offerings are much slimmer than the inch stuff. My workplace, which does a lot of USA plans, etc, do convert to inches any metric drawing, so you are very correct there, of course. Then again, my wife works for a construction company, and the engineers there convert all inch stuff to metric! It's a funny life. Back to the workshop; JohnS.
Gone Away	12/02/2012 18:39:10
829 forum posts 1 photos	Posted by John Alexander Stewart on 12/02/2012 18:19:25: KBC, who gets almost all of my orders, is an american company. Which ones aren't? I use KBC a lot too. It's helps that their Mississauga location is only 10 min away and, by now, I'm on friendly terms with the guys on the counter. The $25 minimum is a bit of a drag sometimes.

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