Basic Electrics

Hi John, click on the link posted by Gary Wooding about 8 responses above this. I think you will enjoy it. I know I did.

When I looked into it a few years ago the requirements were down to your chosen organisation. One I looked at just needed you to take their "approved" training companies part P course and pass the test. The coure was 3 days, no entry requirement but the suggested that if you had not done any installation work before you should consider their 5 day basic course. Eight days from zero to Part P. The Part P course seemd to mostly be how to read the tables in the regs and use a specific (not Fluke) multi-function tester. Oh they were agents for that tester but I'm sure there was no pressure to buy one....

I did the same with gas 12 years ago when we moved in to this house. Gas had been taken out so I put in all new pipes etc. British Gas put in a new meter and a good (ex BG) Gas Safe appproved fitter made the final connections, testing and signed it off. He wanted to know how I knew to sleeve the wall penetrations and seal them at one side only, I just read the regulations (it stopps the pipes chafing on the wall, leaking into the cavt and building up until it reaches a light switch - boom.

Robert G8RPI.

Does seem complicated. My feeling is the system is designed to put cowboy electricians out of business by forcing a full range of professional standards on them, not just technical qualifications. It's assumed a Competent Person is a professional working for a Business responsible for competencies, HSE, and guarantees. For example, a Competent Person is required to have 2 Million pounds worth of Public Liability Insurance! The approach isn't designed to help amateurs, however well-qualified.

Nothing to stop anyone registering as a business, doing the necessary training, and buying insurance themselves but hardly worth the fuss for even a major DIY wiring job. Another approach is to pay to have DIY work inspected, but that looks to have been made awkward too. Might be possible to persuade a business to certify an amateur as a Competent Person, but I doubt they'd be willing to take on the liability. Glad I'm retired - I had to renew competencies every year and the necessary study was a right pain.

Dave

SOD,
Where do you get " a Competent Person is required to have 2 Million pounds worth of Public Liability Insurance! " from? For elecrical work , you just have to be competent, no defined formal qualifications or level of training etc specified by the law. The problem is that notification of notifiable works has to be done through an organisation like NICEIC so they may have requirements.

Note that this discussion has been about doing work on your own domestic property, not doing commercal work or work for others.

Robert G8RPI.

The problem with giving electrical advice is the abilities of the recipient to understand what they are told and to implement it properly. The electrics of any machine are unlikely to last as long as the machine and unlikely to meet regulations 20 years after manufacture. Although we are not obliged to keep chasing the latest regulations just for the sake of it we will need to improve a system when it is modified. As more electronics is being built into modern machines the need to update to replace obsolete failed equipment is going to grow. Fitting a new motor and starter on your 100 year old Drummond is going to be easier than a new speed control board on your 20 year old mini lathe. Having glimpsed some dodgy installations in members pictures it would be a win if people could be persuaded to leave it to the experts or get detailed advice and implement it to the letter, getting something “working” can be a long way from a good quality safe installation.

Mike

Yes that ^

Robert G8RPI.

Have I misunderstood the Building Regulations? I read them to mean home owners aren't - for example - allowed to rewire their dwelling because it's major work requiring approval and Part P requires a competent person to be in charge. No difference between domestic and commercial work.

A business can nominate a competent person without the individual having any qualifications, but doing so involves the business taking responsibility if anything goes wrong. That's were the liability comes from - it's a commercial rather than a technical requirement. Public Liability cover is necessary because it's unlikely ordinary home insurance would cover damage or injury resulting from major work especially if was found to have ignored the Building Regulations.

It appears to be an interlocking mesh of requirements. Not enough to have a technical qualification, someone else has to say you're a Competent Person, and that someone else has to be a registered Business which means they have to tick a lot of other legal boxes as well. It means you and I can't declare each other to be Competent, even though I'm sure you are!

I think the target is cowboy builders rather than amateur electricians. We're just collateral damage. No problem as long as we stick to minor works.

Could be I've misunderstood, but the logic seems sound. Not saying I agree with it!

Dave

Hmm,
You are correct in your understang of the building regulations but the person just has to be competent (This can be through education, training, experience or other means). This is different from a Competent Person which implies a formal set of requiremens. For Part P competence a business or company is not required and even for a business it's not the business that detemines competence, but the notifying organistion. The best known is NICEIC. Some seem to have lower reqirements than others. Individuals within the company are determined to be competent (by the notifying organisation) and they can move this to another employer or use it personally (subject to employment terms of course). Non desiginated persions (I hesitate to call them incompetent ) can do work under the supervision of the competent one but the final inspection and testin must be done by a competent person. I know of no legal requirement to have a certain levl of insurance, but it's a good idea. Using a notifying organisation is not the only rout to compliance with bulding regs, anyone can do the work as long as they can convince the local building control that they are competent and or any inspections required by building control assure ompliance. Note that the inspections required could (will?) make this approach more costly than using a approved electrician.
My own area of competency (aviation) requires me to be competent to determine that a design is safe and meets the regulations, but does not have a firm set of requirements defining either. Being a Chartered Engineer is common but not essential and not enough on its on. I'm a CEng now but wasn't whn I first held a CAA or EASA design signatory. Competence is determined by the CAA in this case.

Robert G8RPI.

Hi Robert,

I thought the last bit of your post was very telling. I'm also a Chartered Engineer achieving full membership of the I.Mech.E in 1979. Few people know what CEng means, the work required to achieve it and the cost of maintaining registration. I'm well past retirement now but in my final years saw many 'Competent' young people from local electrical repair companies with little more than a NVQ2 well out of their depth repairing our industrial equipment.

Len

Hi Len,
I'm lucky that my employer pays for my membership (Fellow of Royal Aeronautical Society) and registration fees. Last year I even got them to pay my EASA licence renewal because someone was lazy and ticked "licenced engineer" on a customer document. Last time (5 year renewal) they said that they didn't use my licence so would not pay.
I've come across commercil electricians who didn't ven know basic stuff like a capacitor across the mains causes a current to flow but no power too be dissipated. This was in connection with a motor drive EMI filter tripping a RCD put passing a insulation test.
some time lateer I picked up an electricians course text book at a car boot and was shocked at how much the basics wer dumbed down or jut plain wrong.

Robert G8RPI.

Are we not, practical people.? Let your local bloke know what you intend to do, rewire away and get him or her to sign off on it with a full installation test.

Anything with a plug on it is equipment not intallation so it's up to you. These days a fully compliant electrical distribution system will pretty much catch anything dodgy you plug into it.

regards Martin

Compliant to what? the regulation when the house was built? That is likey to be decades go. I assume by "catching" you mean it will trip an RCD. That is OK for shocks and shorts to ground IF an RCD is fitted to the circuit.. This is hghly recommended but no obligitory for the majority of domestic premises in the UK.
Shorts to ground and gross overlods are not the only risk. Now that MCBs and RCDs are catching "conventional" faults it now arcing faults that are causing a lot of fires. A conventional MCB can't tell the difference between a normal 1kW load and a 1kW arc. New devices that will trip on arcs are available but are not mandated (yet). In any case it is bad practice to rely on protective devices protecting against poor design or installation.

Robert G8RPI.